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Council of Elrond • View topic - Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Moderator: Thorsten the Traveller

Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Bandobras Took » Mon Nov 22, 2010 7:37 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Nov 23, 2010 11:06 am

Imo, these cards should not be played outside m/h phase at all. The effect on a dunk-deck can indeed be devastating, but it's equally overpowered in many other circumstances. I've seen Worlds finals games been decided on it. Imo ICE really frecked up with these cards (like they did with Great Shadow Balrog).

So I'd support this erratum, but not wholeheartedly for reasons of it being rather narrow. I think it's no good designing errata for a tournament purpose only.
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Bandobras Took » Tue Nov 23, 2010 5:48 pm

One of the main purposes of the CoE is to be responsible for the tournament scene, however. Since casual games on GCCG following tournament conventions, there is a wide enough scope for me. I'm glad for a positive vote. :)
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Nov 23, 2010 9:42 pm

Sure, but I meant that errata should be taken on basis of structural considerations (Ire/Blind are "broken"), not importance for meta-game (allow more FW ringdecks). Hence another type of erratum might be better, like: can't play outside m/h phase anymore. Imo that concept is too weird for a hazard, it is reserved for Twilight, and as such it's an anomaly and nuisance (to me).
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Frodo » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:40 am

I'm interested in supporting Thorsten's proposal, since if we're going to erratta a card, it would be nice to "fix" other imbalances with it as well.

However, again, I'm stymied by a lack of understanding of games where these hazards have been all-deciding. Despite my experience, I just can't remember how "broken" this card has been when played during the organization phase. So I'd like to hear about more cases/complaints where a desire for this kind of erratta has been asked.

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Bandobras Took » Fri Feb 25, 2011 1:54 pm

That's the thing -- Blind/Ire might decide a game, but there are any number of cards that can decide a game. I've seen Dark Tryst decide a game.

The only case I can think of where Blind/Ire are auto-lose is FW Dunk, simply because your opponent can see what your doing and simply hold the hazards. It guarantees at least one turn of delay and possibly two, which is just too much for dunk in competitive settings. That's the only case where I see it as too powerful rather than just extremely strong, which is why my proposal was limited to that.

And since I'm the only one I'm aware of who tries FW Dunk on a consistent basis, the only comments about it you're going to see are probably going to be from . . . me. :)
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:37 pm

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Bandobras Took » Mon Feb 28, 2011 2:20 pm

There's still the outside chance of an influence check succeeding. Blind can't stop an influence check, it can just stop a bonus.

What blind/ire can stop is a Ring Test. You can't even try to test a ring. That's the key difference that I see.
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Shapeshifter » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:43 pm

I understand that you are annoyed by these cards. They can be extremely strong in some cases. On the one hand I have seen many cases when Blind canceled a Marvels Told played on Heart Grown Cold in last turn. This decided the game. On the other hand these cards are sometimes among the very few that can really stop a well constructed FW deck (think about FW Pallando Haven Squatter where one of the few chances to win against is canceling the Longbottom Leaves).

Coming back to ring tests. I understand that a well timed Blind makes your Wizard's Tests almost impossible. There are other ways for a FW to test a ring, though. Test of Fire and Black Rain cannot be canceled by Blind and last but not least Gandalf's ability to test for a ring cannot be canceled at all by these cards.

To sum it up: I think that these cards, especially Blind, can be very annoying to FW dunk decks and lower your chances to get The One out. Still they don't make dunking for a FW impossible. It SHOULD be very hard for FWs to win with The One Ring as it should be for minions.
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:06 am

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:42 pm

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Shapeshifter » Wed Mar 02, 2011 1:39 pm

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:25 pm

Well, it's not just a proposal, as much as I think it is the original intention of the card. After all, what "chain of effects" is referred to, when you play Longbottom or a Wizard's Test? The only probable chain is the one you start by playing Blind/Ire itself in response. The only thing it does now is stop you from cancelling ongoing effects from short-events played earlier the same turn.

I would also agree with playing Blind/Ire on any short-event during m/h phase, with or without chain of effects, as much as Many Sorrows or Wrath of the West can cancel stuff during m/h phase. But I don't know how to incorporate both these ideas into a simple erratum.

And when it comes to the SWOT analysis of the Fallen alignment, I would certainly like to hear your analysis, I have ample experience in that section as Fallen is my preferred alignment, and imo Blind/Ire are not needed to set the balance straight. How bout duplicating Heart Grown Cold 3 times?

btw. I still don't get what you mean with "other possibilities for FW Dunk", other than using Gandalf a ringtest is 100% needed, so you'd need 4 Tests to be sure to get 1 through...
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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Shapeshifter » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:13 pm

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Re: Erratum Proposal: Blind/Ire and Ring Tests

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:16 pm

Well, a reasonable person would assume that you'd need at least 2 links for something to be considered a chain, a chain of 1 is pretty daft. But you're right that it is generally formulated this way.

Opponent having both Ire and Blind in hand is indeed unlikely, just as unlikely as scoring The One with a Black Rain :lol:
I mean, you can't really take such factors into consideration. Who knows, you might have tested before opponent has time to draw his sideboarded Blind, or you can have 4 tests in hand, you can have Smoke Rings in hand to immediately recycle your tests and Saruman/Gandalf can get them back...issue remains, Ire/Blind can stop FW dunk pretty cold.
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