[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 483: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/bbcode.php on line 112: preg_replace(): The /e modifier is no longer supported, use preg_replace_callback instead
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4772: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4774: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4775: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/includes/functions.php on line 4776: Cannot modify header information - headers already sent by (output started at [ROOT]/includes/functions.php:3887)
Council of Elrond • View topic - On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Moderator: Thorsten the Traveller

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby miguel » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:19 pm

meccgnetrep (at) gmail (dot) com
User avatar
miguel
Council Member
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:21 am

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:37 pm

A Great Shadow deck that plays characters from sb only for points, obviously.

Of late other versions (say, Red Hills or the Heiner variant) are more popular, but the real speed Balrog (Wolf/Maps squat) doesn't even need WhCtK in site phase to win.

Imo the two problems co-exist, the speed problem (no carddraw/cardmanagement), and the points problem. Limiting 3 mind means automatically that to play points a player will include point chars in deck, thus affecting the speed problem also. Hence 3 mind rule remains best option.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
User avatar
Thorsten the Traveller
Chairman
 
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby miguel » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:06 pm

Well, I just made 35 MPs in 4 turns with Marcos' hero deck. Should we take a look at what could be done to make it weaker?

I don't think that overly nerfing the Balrog is necessary. I realize you haven't been playing GO in a long time, and back in the day there was a lot of complaining regarding the "over-powered" Balrog decks. I never thought that they were, and still don't. It's part of the metagame to prepare your hazards so that they can do the most damage, like 3x Arthadan Rangers vs. Wolfiehog. Honestly I think most of the complaining came from people's inability to adjust.

If you really want to nerf the Balrog, then yes, my suggestion is obviously inadequate. But it does remove the cheeziest element, and I've just never found it interesting or fun to play Balrog without his Hill Trolls ready to rock & roll.
meccgnetrep (at) gmail (dot) com
User avatar
miguel
Council Member
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:21 am

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Bandobras Took » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:18 am

I agree with Miguel, which is why I like the suggestion of limiting it to the Org Phase if we're not going to limit Chance Meeting/WHCtK. This preserves the Balrog's character play advantage without making it unduly easy.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Non-voting member
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Mar 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Sure, nobody knew how to adapt...that's why Balrog won 4 worlds in a row, and is still winning so many tourneys (in which a serious player plays it). The only reason it's less in forefront currently, is because of its success, people are bored to tears with it. There were times when 1 out of 2 decks were Balrog. But I guess that was just due to the fact that people are alot smarter nowadays, back then they were all inexperienced...

So: not really. Metagame will always shift, but a strict analysis of alignment shows for Balrog:
biggest GI/DI in the game (Umi/Bumi/Bolg have 18 DI together, hahaha)
biggest/best cardflow management (sure some decks can outdraw them, but I'm talking alignment here)
biggest flexibility in resource play (referring to movement; Arthadan Rangers? just squat at Isengard and play your Maps down there)
big (perhaps biggest, don't know) flexibility in direct interaction (CvCC, burning faction sites)
biggest average prowess
no MP modifiers needed
no real Balrog specific hazards (not squatting anyways)
high MP ally AND faction playable at a Haven

Basically the only thing missing is a good Balrog dunk,
and of course the Balrog deck is pretty limited due to limited character use, which makes it a dangerous alignment for its popularity (Sauron's preferred deviating argument).

Well, I don't/didn't wanna redo the analisis, it's pretty clear for all who want to see. And don't give me bull about not playing GO, I can still watch it, and I played Heiner at GermNats last year and it could have been an exact copy of 2003 worlds match, nothing much really has happened (Faithless Steward Mordor shuffle deck, oh yeah, who invented that one again back in 2004, hmm...was me, not proud to say)

Anyway, I don't see why 2 minder rule would "nerf" Balrog decks. Obviously I don't want to nerf them either.
Heck, Alfons won Dutch Nats with 2 minder rule Usurper deck in 2004, go figure (I played Faithless cheez only in qualifiers; so much for my Arthadan Rangers, they were twiddling their thumbs)

So WhCtK in site phase might indeed be even cheezier than playing chars straight from sb, true. But that's a general issue, not a Balrog issue.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
User avatar
Thorsten the Traveller
Chairman
 
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Sauron » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:02 pm

I can't speak for others, but if this goes into an offical erratta I would most likely stop playing under CoE rules.

I know I've contemplating setting up a Council of Sauron because I don't like where things are heading. However I've not done so because I don't want to splinter the community as small as it is.

Sauron's 2 cents.
User avatar
Sauron
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:27 pm

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Bandobras Took » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:16 pm

As opposed to all the people who have quit playing, period, because they don't like where things are stuck? Speaking absolutely cold-bloodedly, if by making this change we can draw more people (back) into the game than have people leaving, we should go ahead and do it.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
User avatar
Bandobras Took
Non-voting member
 
Posts: 2309
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2007 2:30 pm

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Sauron » Fri Mar 04, 2011 2:21 pm

User avatar
Sauron
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:27 pm

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby miguel » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:05 pm

Balrog also has the most dangerous 1st turn movement out of Moria, that was left off Eric's list. Having Hill Trolls playable from the sideboard means he can get a beefy company going on turn 1, and frankly many deck types need that. Take it away, and you diminish the variety of things Balrog decks are likely to do, with perhaps the underdeeps decks becoming more popular. This IMO would lessen the gaming experience as a whole.
meccgnetrep (at) gmail (dot) com
User avatar
miguel
Council Member
 
Posts: 655
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:21 am

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Sauron » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:26 pm

User avatar
Sauron
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:27 pm

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby marcos » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:35 pm

User avatar
marcos
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:41 pm
Location: Córdoba, Argentina

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Sauron » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:41 pm

Last edited by Sauron on Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Sauron
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:27 pm

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby marcos » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:42 pm

and i agree with you on that :)
User avatar
marcos
 
Posts: 2010
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2007 5:41 pm
Location: Córdoba, Argentina

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Mar 04, 2011 8:53 pm

@Sauron. No dude, you think you refute it, with partial and incorrect evidence, and funily enough you mention this or that alignment might score better on individual categories, but then what? if Balrog comes second in every category, it's still overall nr. 1 :|

but I didn't wanna redo the discussion about the total strength cause we've been there before, just remember I didn't invent the 2 mind rule, seems there are more people that think Balrog might need correction. Simple question: why is the 2 mind rule such a problem? Why is the current proposal by Mikko such a problem? Seems you don't perceive the problem with Balrog, so I turn it around. You're saying Balrog will become useless with 2 mind rule? You will leave the game for not being able to play a 3 minder from sideboard? cause ICE in their infinite wisdom and on the verge of bankruptcy decided: without 3 minders from sideboard, this game just isn't any fun anymore.

seems to me disagree on principle, more than anything else.
Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
User avatar
Thorsten the Traveller
Chairman
 
Posts: 1499
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2007 1:44 pm
Location: Tilburg, Netherlands

Re: On the Balrog 2-Mind rule and the Real Culprit

Postby Sauron » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:24 pm

User avatar
Sauron
 
Posts: 551
Joined: Tue Sep 19, 2006 3:27 pm

PreviousNext

Return to CoE Rules & Errata

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron