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Council of Elrond • View topic - ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Moderator: Thorsten the Traveller

ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Bandobras Took » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:12 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Bandobras Took » Mon Aug 09, 2010 7:29 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby marcos » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:20 pm

i agree, on everything, i think that we all also agree on that some drastic changes are needed to keep the game alive. We just need the right people that has enough determination to make such changes come true. The question is, are WE, the current CoE, the right people to do so?

I hope the rest of the chosen members are able to write down their thoughts here soon, their opinions are very much needed...
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby marcos » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:37 pm

another question that just came to my mind is: are those drastic changes going to be better for the game or not? Luckily, some kind of answer also came to my mind: How can we know if we keep wondering instead of taking real actions... Let's just move on and we will find out if it is better or not
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Shapeshifter » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:03 am

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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:14 pm

Agreed on the fact that the CoE has so far been putting ICE on a pedestal of God-like proportions, which doesn't do any justice to either the game, or to ICE, or the active players. I've written quite extensively on this matter at the meccg.net forum back in 2006 or so.

Nevertheless, far from being a conservative (as you know well) I do thinkt he actual active player base should be the focus. The balance between serving the game through keeping old customers happy or finding new ones is difficult to find, it involves many factors, but for the moment cards are scarse to find and so are new players, and the old players have proved to be quite resilient in sticking around, so the scale tips in their favor for now I'd say.

Thus, we should undertake some exploration missions trying to find out what their wishes and objections are with regards to different kinds of change. We are a representative body after all.

When it comes to errata, I also think that we need to involve rules-masters.
And I think errata should be a limited tool, not one used for changing the game(experience).

We as CoE should act as the parliament, the general managers, we decide on the course of action and grant authority to decissions, but that doesn't mean we have all knowledge of what's best for the game. So let's acquire that knowledge.
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby thorondor » Tue Aug 10, 2010 3:01 pm

looks like there is an agreement at least in that the COE is enabled to make their own errata. in the past i was rahter conservative, now after many years of beng part of the community, i really think that it is even vital for the health of MECCG.
eric amde some good points about refelecting the player base. but how can we do that? send out a few questions and waiting for answers? that would give us maybe 30 replies, almost a third probably from COE members.
i daresay that 90% of the players out there dont care very much about all of this. they just want to play and have fun.
out of the remaining 10% i daresay that a big majority is pro a new era of errata (done VERY carefully!). thats just an assumtion based on gut feelings mostly. but there are also facts like having new formats (dreamcard, coolplay, scenarios) attracting a lot of people, also known tourneyplayers.

its not about balancing. cause there will always be deck archetypes that are stronger than the rest. cut down the best 3 at the moment, there will be another 3 on top after. so that wouldnt help at all. (imo the game is quite balanced anyway!)
also i dont think we should start to "correct" cards, so that they reflect the books better. cause this would open a door to a lot of problems that have to be fixed then. imo its more a matter of play style. if someone thinks he has to misuse Path of the Dead, well, let him do so. i love thematic play, but in big tourneys nobody cares about that very much (neither do i!). (secanrio stuff is something else of course, but thats why we have virtuals, dreamcards, uep)

what we should do is fixing obvious mistakes, things we can take for granted that ICE would have altered sooner or later anyway.
also the whole terminology scuks atm (see the discussion about when a site is in play, used, or whatevery right now).

i just realize that i am repeating more or less what ben already said (in better words ;-) long story cut short: agreed!

i agree´with eric: its not the task of the COE to issue errata. lets have some Rules Wizards for that. we are just the governing body.
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:00 pm

Small correction Wolfgang: I do think CoE should issue the errata, as it's the body that grants them authority. I just do not think we should be the ones who come up with them (exclusively).

Also, the 90% that just wants to play and does not want to get involved in change, might still be bugged and disappointed by it. But indeed we cannot do more than try to get the message out. Hence the idea for NC's to help, it always helps if you can draw on more people's enthusiasm.

For example, the Balrog 2 mind rule makes perfect sense. The Polish Council still decides to play without it (or decided), not sure they had a discussion, or the organizer of Polish Nationals just decided singlehandedly. If you can involve that council, you'd get more support for making it widely accepted (and thus successful). Same for German Promo's, proxy-use, and whatever future decree we can come up with.

For other imput, we can use the mailing list and start up a discussion here (we've got a poll instrument), and specifically ask key members of the active community to give some advise. We should keep the question specific though, otherwise you enter into the Joe's Saving the Game realm.

All however depends on the authority of the CoE as a whole, which in turn depends on the quality of the proposals, the decissionmaking proces and the general work we deliver. If that's good, people will hopefully see it as a package deal, and not cherrypick from whatever we come up with (yes to promo's, no to proxies etc.)
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby thorondor » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:22 pm

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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby marcos » Tue Aug 10, 2010 4:30 pm

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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Bandobras Took » Tue Aug 10, 2010 6:22 pm

As a further point, I would point to this thread:



While Manuel's "We'd better do this before people start celebrating" comment is particularly telling, what I wish to emphasize is that the NetRep is proposing what amounts to errata.

The position has been forced on him by the lack of any alternative. Such a ruling as that is errata (and I think the Adunaphel ruling falls under the same category, personally). If we provide a strong and above all active system for issuing errata, then the NetRep can go about the business of explaining how the cards and rules work as they stand and forward to the errata process any rules/cards he feels need errata.

I agree that we don't need to axe certain deck types, but a card that shows up in 98% of competing decks might be worth looking at, with an emphasis on understanding why it's showing up so consistently and whether this is a good thing.

On that note, I do not agree that rules experts should be in charge of errata. The function of a rules expert or the NetRep is to tell us how a card/rule works.

The function of deciding whether rules/cards need changes should properly belong to those who understand the metagame and organize/adjudicate tournaments. The two may coincide, but not always.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:08 pm

Well, it is true that in explaining the law you can create law, though the trias politica would suggest judges don't issue errata 8)
I guess there's a difference between rules and card errata here. But you are right Ben, in fact the NetRep should be seen as part of the CoE team, for that reason.

Also agreed on the rule-experts not being in charge of the project, but it has always been my understanding that one didn't get into the NetRep (team) without decent knowledge/experience of the game, not just being a rules fetisjist. Hence they might be helpful when compiling a list. Of course we might also do that. going over all digests and current issues.
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Bruce » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:32 am

I think we should first of all consider the CoE's mission. Its mission consists of keeping MECCG alive and well. Alive and well means basically having the widest possible number of players who are satisfied with the game. For this purpose, the CoE should represent all the players: both the more and the less active ones. The first group needs basically 2 things: clarifications about unclear rules and game situations (i.e. "can I play marvels told in response to Adunaphel being tapped?" or "does a character need unused DI to control an ally?"), and some tutorial (i.e. how to build a deck, a short overview of the most common strategies, and so on), they do not make problems about Strider being unable to use Athelas, Barrow-wight not being playable at Barrow-Downs, and so on. The latter needs to renew the game experience and do something to overcome the card pool stagnation. There are some highly complicated rules dilemmas (e.g. the onguard Foolish Words at the last europeans) which need rulings, but I agree that we should rely on rulesmasters for that to get an ultimate discipline of such borderline game situations.

If the CoE started altering the ICE legacy (modifying rules and or card texts), I'm afraid it would all end up in an arm-wrestling between opposing parties with different ideas of what is broken, what is cheezy, what is unthemathic and so on.

Some cards and strategies are more powerful than others, and some cards are much more frequent in decks than others. That happens in all CCGs. The same applies for the number of top-competition decks being very restricted. I don't think this is the real problem. No CCG can be 100% perfect, at least not for everybody. I think MECCG is well balanced and themathic as it is. After all, a game is an abstraction: for the sake of playability, the perfect adherence between rules/cards and Tolkien's works can be sacrificed, to some limited extent.

Intervention on existing rules and/or cards is justified whether its benefits are clearly greater than its costs. In other words, whether they fix unanimously acknowledged faults. Not by chance the only precedent was the Balrog 2-mind rule, which fixed an imbalance, and was welcomed by the whole community and didn't create any rift. Nevertheless, I consider this as a pretty unique case: an abuse of such intervention may lead to endless conflicts

It's true that the best way to really honor ICE's legacy is to carry on with their work from where it was interrupted, as already pointed out. Developing and promoting DCs and VCs until they reach the same level of popularity of the standard game will provide scope for new strategies and broadening the game experience: developing new sets of cards (if necessary accompanied by new rules, and/or modifications of existing rules) instead of struggling over modifications to the existing ones can be more productive, IMO. In my view, the "standard" MECCG, i.e. the whole ICE-era's legacy, would become an introduction to the "CoE-era" of MECCG, an inner core of something bigger (and better). ;)

Another powerful tool would be promoting alternative and highly thematic game formats based on "quests" and "missions" like the Cool Play and the Hamburger tournament. This would fit the needs of the players who (for whatever reason) want to stick with the standard card pool. Anyway, that would be another story.

To make it short, the point is not being conservatives or non-conservatives: the point is where we need to act in order to achieve our goals. IMO we should focus on developing something new, instead of taking huge efforts (with uncertain benefits) in order to retouch the existing.
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby Sfan » Fri Aug 13, 2010 7:51 am

Congratulations Bruce! Well spoken and up to the point. Nothing to add or comment.
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Re: ICE-Era Rulings and Conservatives

Postby marcos » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:57 am

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