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Council of Elrond • View topic - Entwives review

Entwives review

Moderators: Vastor Peredhil, Thorsten the Traveller, Vastor's Dreamers

Entwives review

Postby Fangorn » Sat May 01, 2010 9:47 pm

Hrum, Hoom ! Do not be hasty, that is my motto.
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Re: Entwives review

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sun May 02, 2010 2:50 pm

I hope you'll agree that the requirements for Entwives aren't too big, rather that they are too big for the reward, that is your point, right? Because Entwives should not be playable too easily of course.

About the playability. All Ents are able to move to Anduin Vales, and from there on it is a standard 4 region movement to either Lindalf or Everdalf. So find something useful to do in Anduin Vales! ringsearching combines perfectly with Ents as they can move to many ringsites.
Besides, a few Twice Baked Cakes aren't that difficult to incorporate, as your deck shows. There's also other movement enhancers like Rush along Recklessly, or We Must Away! for dwarves. With enhanced movement there are or will be quite a few sites in the east as well reachable from Fangorn, currently you can also get to Adan Tomb in Forrhun, but there will be more sites.
nb. you can reach Adan Tomb now also from Anduin Vales without enhancement.
nb. Everdalf is perfectly reachable and doable as it doesn't border on Angmar and does border on Talath Uiechel...you can play the Lossoth at Leiri to boost the faction.

Miraearon is a hidden vale in the forest of Taur Romen, you have to search for it and even if you find it you cannot be certain to find it again. For these reasons and because I didn't want minions to go there I made it a resource, it could otherwise have been a Hidden Site also. So the effort is there, but the reward is good also, as you can get 6 MP out of it (or more with Noble Hounds etc.).

Entwives needs no other requirements to be played, the other ent faction/allies just boost the roll. The roll is steep but not undoable, Elrond with Vilya makes it easily, Galadriel with Nenya has a good shot (and Lord versions can recycle these), but also a wizard with 10 free and a Lordly Presence or Tempering Friendship or Friend or 3 has a chance, basically anyone with 4-5 DI and a helper card (Nestador in a NW deck, for example). This is not undoable without ents, and therefore I wouldn't consider Entwives result of an Ent mission deck.

Not that the mission part isn't nice, in fact I wonder if Entwives isn't playable too easily, thematically speaking. The search for the Entwives is represented by the region changing part, if you like, and you can also use the faction to move your Ents across the map even without ever playing it! :wink:
But for game-technical reasons I'd rather keep the clauses to play Entwives as they are, otherwise it is always sideboarded in last turn and that's no fun either.

Now the reward. 2 mp is not alot compared with other factions, but there are quite a few bonusses, you get +2 for a man faction in the area and you can play another ally Wandlimb (and/or Willowshanks). As you might have noticed, my personal approach for dreamcards is to reward with tactical advantage and thematical interdepence rather than with MPs. You get 2 mp for the man faction, because the Wives went off to live with men and cultivate crops, rather than the Ent-men herding the wild trees. If we upp the standard reward for Entwives, the incentive to play the man faction will be lower. I have thought about a kind of tactical cultivation ability, but the card is too full already. Maybe if such a card arrives the reward for Entwives will be 3 mp standard.
nb the original card had 1(3) Mp's, I already upped it to 2(4) :D

However something could be done about making the bonusses more plausible. Perhaps we allow Wandlimb with Treebeard, after all she did leave him. That would make it easier to cash in on playing her.
Another issue is that the man factions for standard use available are too few, there's only Lossoth, Helecoth and Berninga. Perhaps we should increase the usable man factions also to adjacent regions, for example you could play Men of Dorwinion for a gross 5 mp an easy faction, that would be a cool end thematically to the Miraearon story. nb Note that you have to discard any man factions when playing Miraearon (because of the sad happenings that went on between Willowshanks and the Easterlings), but you can still play man factions afterwards of course.

Lastly, the movement issue for ent-allies is tricky, yes. Last March of the Ents solves it a bit, of course, maybe we allow moving ent-allies in the same/adjacent region as entwives also. But thematically, once you've found the Entwives, do you think the ents would then leave them behind again? I don't think so. :wink:
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Re: Entwives review

Postby Fangorn » Thu May 06, 2010 8:52 pm

I naturally agree that the requirements aren't too big for Entwives ; I would even say they are not enough !

Note that all Ents except Beechbone may move to Anduin Vales.
Entwives are not playable in Everdalf because it's adjacent to Dragon Gap, which is a Shadow-land.

I didn't noticed Rush along Recklessly, which is a cool card.
On the other side, We Must Away ! is not suitable because it isn't thematic to play Dwarves with Ents, which have memories of axe-wielders !

Forrhun will be a region more thematic to play rather than Northern Waste, because the only clue for Entwives is that they went east, and would have not chosen barren and cold lands.

For Miraeron I'm OK with a resource rather than a site, just as Entmoot for the difficulty to find it.
I don't thought about Noble Hound playable at Miraeron ... why not making Miraeron a free-hold to avoid this ?

I cannot consider playing Entwives without playing Ents of Fangorn and at least one Ent, but it's indeed doable ...

To make them full MPs, Refugees may be used too.
When I first played deck, I used to influence Beornings as Refugees at Cerin Amroth.
Otherwise Men of Dorwinion would indeed be very suitable thematically.

About Wandlimb, I think discard clause should be changed from "Discard if her company moves and does not contain an Ent" by "Discard if her company moves and does not contain an Treebeard", because only Treebeard may convince her to leave her home.
Additionally it would be fun to make When a Man Loves a Woman playable on Treebeard/Wandlimb duo !

I imagined when Ents will found Entwives, they could convinced them to live back in (or near) their ancestral forests.
Hrum, Hoom ! Do not be hasty, that is my motto.
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Re: Entwives review

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 07, 2010 12:40 pm

short reply:
Everdalf does not border on Dragon-gap, both Everdalf and Lindalf border on Talath Uiechel. The Northern Waste might not seem a place suitable for Entwives, but remember that it was chosen by Yavanna for the healing of Arda Marred, and moreover Lindalf is quite forested, it's not all barren land. But yes the East would be more suitable as it is told they went East, though that initially refers to the Brown Lands.

I like Noble Hounds as forest creatures 8)

Rush along Recklessly might be rather weird to play on an Ent though :D

Wandlimb might also go with Willowshanks. And she might find Quickbeam an interesting young Ent with some entepreneurial spirit. We know that Treebeard laments the loss of Fimbrethil, but not that they were an item actually. Maybe he was in love with her, but it was not mutual :wink: , and like I said she did leave him, so there were some irreconcilable differences apparently. If the Entwives would reconcile with the Ents, it will probably have to be the Ent-men who have to bind, not the Entwives, but I like the real tragedy in Tolkien's work of them being fundamentally different, so to speak.

the issue is of course, do you want Wandlimb to be just an additional Entwives bonus last turn or acually use her? Her ability is pretty useful. If you have to wait for Treebeard it might be end of game. With Ents it's the same as with women irl: if you let them wait, they'll go off with another dude...
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Re: Entwives review

Postby Fangorn » Fri May 07, 2010 8:43 pm

I'm quite confused because on the maps I have (All.pdf and All area.pdf), Everdalf and Dragon Gap are adjacent ...
Hrum, Hoom ! Do not be hasty, that is my motto.
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Re: Entwives review

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sat May 08, 2010 10:37 am

Hmm, I don't actually know those maps, we use the Hero Haven map from Vastor's dreamer's map.xls in the seteditor folder.
We're working on making it into pdf, but it's rather big.
There should also still be a link to the Fate master map around, which is outdated but for most regions it still works.
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