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Council of Elrond • View topic - Declaring movement to a site in play

Declaring movement to a site in play

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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 3:04 pm

To be fair I must mention the other things that are not fair.

Using of map is not fair in comparison to using a region cards.
Depending on a change of situation in game a player who uses map may decide that his company moves from Framsburg to Dale through Anduin Vales, Grey Mountain Narrows, Northern Rhovanion (if in meantime Spider of the Môrlat has been played as permanent-event), or that the company rather moves through Anduin Vales, Woodland Realm, Northern Rhovanion (if in meantime Foul Fumes has been played [and the company does not have a ranger]).
A player who uses a region cards must decide in organization phase.

However until start of the company's M/H phase nothing relies on knowledge about regions through which the company will move.
By its nature (i.e. not being represented by cards) a regions on map cannot be removed from play, so for instance a question "which region cards should be kept on table" does not exist.
A sites already in play are represented by cards and a question "which site cards should be kept on table" may appear even in organization phase.

In this situation: is it fair to demand a possibility to specify later a company's new site already in play, as excuse using the argument that otherwise an opponent would know more than he knows when company moves to site not already in play (using face down site card)? And at the same time taking advantage of using map rather that a region cards?

Both regions chosen in organization phase and site already in play chosen as new site could be noted elsewhere and the note could be revealed when needed.
This could reconcile a need of not revealing and need of preventing a manipulation. At obvious cost of inconvenience.
But this is easier to achieve than to reconcile "choosing now" and "specyfing later".
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Mordakai » Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:46 pm

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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:07 pm

We will not speak of such things even in the morning of the Shire.
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:50 pm

That's nice, but the site path cannot be determined nor indicated until the company's m/h phase, whereas determining the site card itself can.
Are you saying that not solving 1 wrong is a valid reason to not solve another? Or just that 'fair' is not a valid concept at all in meccg.
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Bandobras Took » Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:23 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:58 pm

I'm saying two things.

1. Fairness is not good criterion for the game. Consistency is better.
Without consistency there is place for things that work despite of some reason and for other things that do not work for the same reason.

2. If someone agree to use map instead of a region cards, he agree to take advantage that map gives him and his opponent over using a region cards.
"Is the advantage fair?" is not problem for him.
Now that someone may notice that disclosed choice of new site that is a site already in play gives an opponent advantage over specifying new site that is face-down site card (not already in play).
An opponent knows a new site earlier.
This time this is a problem that must be solved. Registering the chosen site somewhere else and disclosing the note later is not solution to be considered.
Instead: the new site must be specified when needed, but not later than at start of company's M/H phase, and not later than when otherwise the site would be removed from play.

This not only removes "An opponent knows a new site earlier" problem (that one could be removed by registering/revealing note) but also gives a player a time to change a decision which of reachable sites already in play will be specified as company's new site.

However there is a solution for the new problem. "I swear" solution. A player must choose a concrete site in organization phase, he does not disclose the choice, and does not register anywhere the choice. He is obliqued by honor to not specifying other reachable site than that which he chose.

OK, OK, but... I see some technical problems, even bigger than that caused by registering a choice somewhere else (that are just inconvenience). If a choice of new site is not registered anywhere, even a computer program that would be able to verify a validity of playing could not be able to verify whether a site already in play specified as a new site is the same as site chosen in organization phase.

But it is not necessarily an inconsistent approach. Consistently a target of tapping of Magical Harp could be specified in the same way - choose, not disclose a choice until needed.
Why a choosing/specifying among revealed cards would be governed by different rules by particular case basis?
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Mordakai » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:28 pm

And from my limited point of view... does anyone thought that the REAL intention of the game developers was exactly that? That you can "delay" the choice of site to move at until you have no other choice than moving that company, and depending on what you draw with the other companies you are moving before that?
After all, how many sites will you have in play? 5 or 6 among origin and new sites? maybe 8? And how many of them are reachable for "that" company? Come on, a more or less smart oponent could guess that next site, or at least choose from very limited options. Hey, even most of the times you can guess where is the opponent moving with a face down site, just "reading" how the game is developing, specially at the end of the game and because of the not so rich metagame we can see nowadays...
I'm not defending cheating, don't misunderstand me, just saying that it doesn't have to be cheating, it could be just game mechanics...
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:49 pm

I want to be fair: if I understand, Bandobras does not say about "delayed" choice. Rather about non-disclosed choosing, and stating later which of sites has been chosen (albeit without any technical chance for detecting a change of decision).

Now speaking only for myself: I think that disadvantage of disclosed specifying a site already in play as a new site is counted by other advantages.
A player does not need to wait for leaving the site by other company (and for exhausting deck if the site is tapped and not Haven/hero Buhr Widu). He preserves all permanent events on the site (to be fair again: unwanted too).
This is a reason for which I think that "fair" is not good criterion for the game. This is subjective.
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Bandobras Took » Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:38 am

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:58 pm

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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Logain » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:57 pm

To my opinion RAI > Consistency > Fairness > RAW
(RAI - rules as intended <> RAW - rules as written)

Maybe sometimes LoRE beta rules (that never were published) can be read to see the RAI.

That second version that ICE prepared mentions that you choose if your company moves or not during the move phase.
Meaning you can move company one, then when selecting company 2 choose were to go or even to stay.
No need to plan ahead, possibility to adapt to what happens, game becomes more fluid and fun.
Ok it's not that realistic, but is playing hazards in any order your want despite site path realistic ?
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:59 pm

I did not notice that a realism was concern of anyone participating in this discussion.
If I understand a concern was: at which moment a site already in play must be specified as a new site of company that declares movement to a/the site already in play, and why.
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Bandobras Took » Sat Apr 22, 2017 12:23 am

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby dirhaval » Sun Apr 23, 2017 6:46 am

This has been a good argument to read.

I have played with the idea to move to a site on the table, but not tell the opponent until
the company moved to the site; Some of my opponents have done it, so I followed.
I will no longer do that. Sometimes it is obvious to the site in question that I selected.
However, one can on GCCG pull-out another copy of the site, set it face-down to prove no change was made.

Otherwise abuse can be there such as hoping to draw a card to later untap a tapped site
or draw cards you can use for that turn. Abuse can be anywhere.

My interpretation in the rules about using a site on table is that the name of the site must be mentioned during the organization phase.
"That site" is for a specific site else "The site" would had been used. Besides, which "table" are you referring to?
Laughing once a day helps.

Now, I am open to play with the beta rules if someone wants to do that of selecting the site just before moving.
That mechanic opens up more use of peeking at the hand such as Riddling Talk and palantir. Now I find a use for "Use Palantir"

I did not know that Region cards were unique. If that were told me during a game, then I would stare through
my opponent, point to my stack of region cards including 23 copies of Udun telling that opponent to get off my planet.
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Re: Declaring movement to a site in play

Postby Logain » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:19 am

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