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Council of Elrond • View topic - Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

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Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:36 pm

Ice-Orcs with Trouble on All Borders are in play. There are a two players.

Sub-scenarios:
1. One player has Lossadan Cairn with Hold Rebuild and Repaired, other player does not have Lossadan Cairn in play.
2. One player has Lossadan Cairn with Hold Rebuild and Repaired, other player has Lossadan Cairn with Rebuild the Town.
3. One player has Lossadan Cairn with Hold Rebuild and Repaired, other player has Lossadan Cairn not under effect that changes its type.
4. One player has Lossadan Cairn with Hold Rebuild and Repaired, other player has Lossadan Camp with Nature's Revenge.

Question is: when Forochel is considered containing a site type of [-me_rl-]?
Depending on answer, Forochel and its adjacent regions are, or are not affected by Trouble on All Borders, or No Escape from My magic played on Ice-Orcs.

Proposed answer:

A region is considered containing a site of given type if:
- there is a site located in the region, that is normally of the given type, and that players may use, and no player has its copy of the site in play,
or
- at least one copy of the site of given type located in the region is already in play.

According to this answer Trouble on All Borders, or No Escape from My magic played on Ice-Orcs affects Forochel and its adjacent regions in sub-scenarios (3) and (4).

Comment to "there is a site located in the region, that is normally of the given type, and that players may use, and no player has its copy of the site in play,":
although it is not applicable to Ice-Orcs, I have decided to include the phrase "and that players may use" to make the answer generic, not applicble to Ice-Orcs only.
Hypothetical effect may, for example, check for existence of Dark-Haven or Wizard-Haven in region. The answer will depend on which version of sites a players may use. If there is no minion player, then Angmar does not contain Dark-Haven in any case. If there is no Fallen-wizard then Arthedain does not contain Wizard-Haven in any case. If there is no Fallen Radagast, Southern Mirkwood contains Wizard-Haven only if a site in Southern Mirkwood is converted to Wizard-Haven.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Bandobras Took » Mon Mar 13, 2017 2:47 am

My response would be that a hazard would use the resource player's version of the site; if the resource player's version of the site is not in play, the the default for the alignment of the resource player is used.

Thus the scenarios above would be dependent on whose turn it is, and might only affect one player rather than all players.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:27 am

Because this is a question not answered currently by rules, almost any answer (accepted by players) would be better than no answer.

But I have some doubts about your proposal.

Ice-Orcs with Trouble on All Borders are in play. There are a two players.
FW player is taking its turn and his copy of Lossadan Cairn is in play and it is his Wizardhaven. He has no Lossadan Camp in play, but his opponents has Lossadan Camp with Nature's Revange (that makes all versions of the site [-me_rl-]).

Does it mean that in turn of FW player Ice-Orcs are not considered playable at site in Forochel, but in turn of his opponent they are again considered playable?
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Bandobras Took » Mon Mar 13, 2017 3:04 pm

That is how I would treat it, yes. The hazard checks whether a given company is moving, then checks to see whether there is a valid site within the parameters. It makes sense to me that the hazard would use the sites the potentially affected company would use.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:43 pm

Thanks. I will mention about some consequence of this answer.
In the same scenario as previously, FW player's company starts moving to Lossadan Camp. Nature's Revenge takes effect and now Ice-Orcs are considered playable at site in Forochel (for FW player; whether anything checks for it, or not, Ice-Orcs are all time playable for other player). Next the company is redirected to Bree by Chance of Being Lost. Now Ice-Orcs becomes not playable for FW player.

Fact that some answer sounds strange is not a sign that the answer is wrong. The game is full of abstract concepts.
My notion on the problem:
A sites (and their types) are per player who uses them. So, for example Wild Hounds is not playable at FW version of The White Towers and FW company at this version of the site cannot play/influence it; at the same time Wild Hounds is playable at other versions of The White Towers.
But regions are not per player. Old-Pukel Land did contain Geann A-Lisch since MELE edition, and before MEAS answer on question:
"is there Geann A-Lisch in Old-Pukel Land?" did not depend on "who asks? minion or hero player?" *.
This notion is basis of my proposal.

*) now imagine a some unique faction playable at Geann A-Lisch with No Escape from My Magic; Trouble on All Borders exists since MEAS, so that would not be a problem anymore.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:11 am

...or just consider Elves of Lindon with No Escape from My Magic (at times before MEAS and in minion player vs hero player game).
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Bandobras Took » Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:09 pm

Strictly speaking, for a minion player, Lindon did not contain the Grey Havens before such a site existed for minions.

The idea that regions behave differently for different alignments is not without precedent; No Escape/Trouble On All Borders played on Orcs of Udun would not affect a hero company moving in Dagorlad, but would affect minion companies, because for heroes, Dagorlad and Udun are not adjacent.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:59 pm

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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:22 am

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:49 am

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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 15, 2017 12:39 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:27 pm

1.
For me this is obvious that even if I cannot make anything with a X, it does not mean that the X does not exist for me.
Once played the Escape/Trouble may create actions, whether anybody wants it or not. At the point there is owner of the cards, but there is no user of the cards.
2.
What is your opinion about choosing a rescue site? Whose view on regions, hazard player's or resource player's, is taken into account when a rescue site is being chosen along with playing Spells of the Barrow-Wights?
Hero company is moving from Barad-Dur to Cirith Gorgor. For resource player Udun and Dagorlad are not adjacent, they are adjacent for hazard player. Can Dead Marches be chosen as rescue site?
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:39 pm

I forget to say: in last scenario a hazard player is a minion player.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Bandobras Took » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:57 pm

In the case of 2, at least, I would definitely go by the resource player's perspective. To do otherwise may inordinately strengthen the prisoner-taking hazard by requiring more movement than was intended.

For 1, our approaches are definitely incompatible. I feel if a player has no capacity for X, X should not affect them.
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Re: Are there any Ruins&Lairs in Forochel?

Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:05 pm

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