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Council of Elrond • View topic - Legendary Hoard

Legendary Hoard

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Legendary Hoard

Postby zirilan » Thu Jan 28, 2010 6:14 pm




Daelomin at Home + Legendary Hoard = hl ∞

Just discard Daelomin at Home for +2 hazard limit, due to Legendary Hoard the discard won't take place but the Daelomin at Home card is inverted. Discard Daelomin at Home again for another +2 hazard limit and due to Legendary Hoard the Daelomin at Home card is inverted back to normal status etc. etc. etc.

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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Konrad Klar » Thu Jan 28, 2010 7:53 pm

Question is: why Dragon at Home is inverted?
Maybe to tick that it does no longer count as being in play and its card serves only as host for Legendary Hoard?
Not sure though.

BTW. First post is very illustrative. :)
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Bandobras Took » Thu Jan 28, 2010 11:17 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Jan 29, 2010 12:52 am

"If target Dragon is required to be discarded or removed to play invert Dragon on table until this card is discarded."

Other interpretation:
Legendary Hoard does not prevent the Dragon from being discarded or removed from play, but only changes normal result of discarding/removing from play to inverting.
So ability of Daelomin at Home under Legendary Hoard would be used once.
Cards that prevent other cards (like characters) from being discarded just prevents them from being discarded. They does not change result of discarding. They says "cannot be discarded", or "is never discarded", not "if target is required to be discarded".
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby zirilan » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:46 am

There is no rule that you cannot target or use a card that is inverted (like wounded characters, Fate of the Ithil-stone, etc.). Since Daelomin at Home does not need to be 'uninverted' in order to use it, you can use it even if inverted or tapped. Legendary Hoard does not say, you cannot use the attached Dragon at Home once it is inverted.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Jan 29, 2010 10:21 am

Right. There is no rules about invering. LH does not say you cannot use the attached Dragon at Home once it is inverted. In fact it also does not say for what it is inverted. Maybe for nothing. Probably additional AA at appropriate dragon's lair is still present too. Even if other manifestation of target Dragon is eliminated.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Bandobras Took » Fri Jan 29, 2010 2:10 pm

Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Jan 29, 2010 3:51 pm

Card may be required to being discarded according to the result of action, or according to the condition of action (that states that certain card must be discarded).
In both cases player may make somethig in lieu.
Leaf Brooch refer to the first case (discarding as result). Memories Recalled refer to the second case (discarding as condition) - Fate of The Ithil-Stone, or Into The Smoking Cone does not force company to discard Lost Knowledge card the company controls. Discarding LK card is condition of playing Fate of The Ithil-Stone, or inverting Into The Smoking Cone. They are both voluntary actions.
And of course in both cases LK (or non-special item) is not being discarded, and it is not placed in discard pile. However condition is considered fulfilled (result is considered executed) - rules does not ask "what happened to the LK (non-special item)?".
Similarly if Burglary has been played, the company has fulfilled condition that requires facing AA at site before taking other actvities in site phase, despite of fact that AA has not been actually faced (if attempt was successfull).

P.S. I agree - CoE 7 is poorly written.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Wacho » Fri Jan 29, 2010 7:19 pm

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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby zirilan » Fri Jan 29, 2010 9:43 pm

Thanks for the replies to the question.
Could someone put that "new cardtext" with the "off to the side"-phrase from the COE #46 into the erratum of Legendary Hoard?
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Nov 17, 2012 11:32 am

I think the ruling on this card goes against the spirit of the card.

The automatic-attack cannot be cancelled. Obviously the idea is that looting the site comes with a price.

If the Dragon is Marvelled, not only is the looting for free, but also the Dragon will stay in play so there is no way that he might come around again to hurt you. This makes the card do exactly the oposite of what it intends.

For DC purpose we will therefore make a ruling: the Dragon is "off to the side," but (unless slain) considered in play for the purpose of creating an automatic-attack.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Konrad Klar » Sat Nov 17, 2012 12:02 pm

About spirit of the card...
"If target Dragon is required to be discarded or removed to play invert Dragon on table until this card is discarded."

Target Dragon may be removed from play due to elimination of its manifestation - this is a reason independent of the target card.
But there is no external effects that would discard At Home manifestation (something like leaving from play The Will of Sauron does for hazard long-events)*. It must be targeted by discarding action, or otherwise directly involved (like Daelomin at Home).

So if Legendary Hoard's text foresee possibility of discarding a target, the target cannot be considered placed off to the side.

*) And even if such effects exists they would not affect an off to the side cards.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Nov 18, 2012 12:57 pm

Obviously the off to side part would only apply once the dragon is inverted, just as it is ruled now.

Off to side and its effects are not conclusively defined. Hosts that put stuff off to side can still define what the status is of the card under it, e.g. like gives no mp's. This one will say "(unless eliminated) associated automatic-attack has effect on the game", this way the at home's special effect does nothing but you can at least still kill the Dragon, without having to hope you run into another manifestation of it.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby dirhaval » Mon Jul 29, 2013 2:13 am

Thank you for the posts. I wanted to learn more of this resource before beginning a new topic.
The posts have helped me more of this card. I say the inverting of the Dragon is to keep
memory on the site since a dead Dragon will get discarded.
To me LH is a resource to be exploited by a player playing the at Home Dragon.
A player will play the At Home hazard, LH, then Marvel Tolds the hazard. Unless his opponent
has that hazard the site is free to raid using Not at Home and a party of dwarves.
I say that another copy of the hazard can be played by an opponent. However, if that hazard
is discarded it is discarded right? Since LH targets a specific card, which is inverted now and not in "play".

The inverting does give the raider problems. If he cannot raid, but his opponent can the raider is left
without the At Home hazard to defend the hoard.
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Re: Legendary Hoard

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:27 am

Another Legendary Hoard question. The card says:
"Discard this card when any item is played at target Dragon's lair that taps the site."

Since Legendary Hoard has a target Dragon's lair, but is not played on a site, that applies to all versions of the site I assume. And therefore Legendary Hoard will get discarded if my opponent plays an item at the site that taps his version of the site?
And all players count their items played at (any version of) the site together to see if any site is tapped?
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