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Council of Elrond • View topic - Adunaphel Unleashed

Adunaphel Unleashed

Where the Virtual Boyz plan their latest capers

Moderator: Virtual Card Development

Postby Frodo » Wed May 28, 2008 4:14 am

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Postby Jambo » Wed May 28, 2008 10:13 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 28, 2008 10:37 am

Agree with Jambo. Maybe can make a card that lets character stay tapped or unable to move away as long as he is at same site as Adunaphel. That means you're locked in it together, for better or worse. Only option then is to start attacking Aduni, if you prepare with cancellers you can 'sing out' [pardon my dutchism but it's apropriate here] a long time and keep him 'captivated' :wink:
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Postby Jambo » Wed May 28, 2008 12:48 pm

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Postby Bandobras Took » Wed May 28, 2008 1:39 pm

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Postby Jambo » Wed May 28, 2008 2:12 pm

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 29, 2008 11:36 am

Aduni should be able to initiate cvcc, why not? just not the same turn. And unless in company with other rw's that would be risky, she might get wounded. I think the power of this card would be more to move to opponent early on and block his key character for some turns, a King under Mountain Dwarf, or Returned King, maybe a dunking Bilbo even. Thus she would be alone, and rather avoid combat. Maybe we should even avoid her being in a (big) company outright.

Adunaphel Unleashed V: permanent-event.
Discard to untap Adunaphel. Tap Adunaphel during the site phase and place this card with a tapped non-avatar non-magic using character opponent has in play at the same site (ignore hazard-events preventing this): Dark-enchantment, character does not untap normally during untap phase, and may not move to another site. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adunaphel is wounded or moves to another site. Cannot be duplicated.

Made it a perm, so has some cardmanagement advantage, but disadvantage that it can't be duplicated, otherwise you could immobilise whole company. (this might be deemed too good already)
Made it playable on tapped character, is a bit harder, and represents character having no defense to her mind games, or whatever it is she's supposed to do.
Character can still use Cram/Arkenstone/Anduril/Forth he hastened etc. to untap, but does not untap normally. I think that's not too bad, do you?
Made it so Aduni doesn't get stopped by River if she wants to use this card, otherwise next turn opponent is gone, or she would have to wait for Uvatha or other guy to help her.
Can also play on minion char., why not? Can be nice vs. squatting orc-leaders playing factions, hehe. They can't attack her? so play Prone to Violence. Also, you're sacrificing the use of an avatar here, there should be some reward at least.
Made it dark enchantment, so people, get your helm of Adamant ready! :)
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Postby Jambo » Thu May 29, 2008 12:39 pm

I like the idea of your card Thorsten. It's just so hard to gauge how powerful or not such a card would be...

First of all we've got site phase. So that means Adunaphel's got to enter whichever site it is untapped. Not easy. One wasted journey will often transpire to two further missed turns: One to return to darkhaven and one to move out again, assuming that the new site is starter movement away from the same darkhaven.

Why site phase if you're automatically going to remove any effects of cards which prevent site phase action (e.g. river)? Why not just have it at the same site? Or if it should require the site phase, does it really need Adunaphel to tap?

Prone to Violence doesn't allow any attacking of a company containing a Ringwraith, so such a card might be overpowered vs minion. Against minion I think the untapping will be cool enough as it is. (Her vanilla card is useless vs minion.)

Adunaphel Unleashed V:
Permanent-event.
Playable on Adunaphel (as your Ringwraith) during the organization phase. Discard to untap Adunaphel. If you have not initiated CvCC this turn, you may tap Adunaphel to place this card with one of your opponent's tapped non-Wizard, non-minion characters at the same site: Dark-enchantment, character does not untap normally during untap phase and may not move to another site. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adunaphel becomes tapped or wounded, or moves to another site. Cannot be duplicated on an opponent's character.

This way, Adunaphel could have two placed on her. One to untap and one to tap. :)

Becomes tapped then means she's effectively using herself up to keep the character there, and can't tap to defend strikes or play resources without losing the card. Writing it this way also means it won't get immediately discarded when it's first transferred since she'll be tapped already.
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 29, 2008 2:09 pm

Prone to Violence not against rw? good, we skip vs. minion, though I still like the idea.

Well, I don't like playable only in org phase, it messes with your cardmanagement bad. Besides, you want to get up and about, not wait till you got 2 on her. Requirement of Aduni to tap isn't that hard, like you say, you just need 2 AU, one to discard, one to play in site phase. If you at least can play it in site phase that is! :wink:. And since you will probably not pull this until turn 3 (you need Aduni, need a mode, and need to effectively locate your opponent), you will have 1 or 2 AU by then. Or use Ring Leaves it's Mark.
There should be some defense against Aduni moving towards you at least, not like Malady...
But, the idea to make it duplicable as perm but not on opponent works too. Just skip the org phase, that is definitely worse than not duplicable.

Like I said, if you get rivered, you may do nothing, which includes transferring cards I suppose, be it site or end of turn phase, and next turn comp is gone, so you need the clause or wait for help from Uvatha.

Like Bandobras said, if Aduni has to be untapped to keep the card on opponent, then it won't last long, so I don't understand that choice. Any maia will probably end it for her.

How strong is the card? don't know, it won't be stronger than Akhorakil, that's for sure, and the same defenses apply. You lose your avatar effectively, ok she can play marvels still (if she's allowed to tap, that is! :wink: ), and your opponent loses a char. Unless it's a key character, that's not a good trade off.

btw. I liked the non magic user part because I figured he would know her tricks :wink:
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Postby Jambo » Thu May 29, 2008 3:17 pm

The Org phase was a trade off for it becoming a permanent event which is infinitely more powerful and useful than AU was as a short-event. I've played Adunaphel and AU several times, and hand clog or bad timing with the short-event occurs quite often, especially when there might be nothing worthwhile to untap Adunaphel for! So, even with the short-event there's the conundrum of whether to hold on to the short-event or discard it. As a perm, this is completely removed, since you can just drop it to the table and have free access to an untapper whenever you like or whenever the need arises. That's much better, and very powerful. With three down you can do three things during a site phase. If Org phase is really viewed as bad, one could of course make it playable on Adunaphel at a site instead? That might be a compromise.

I like the idea of the card being discarded if Adunaphel becomes tapped. If she snares Beorn, Aragorn, Thrain or Elrond, that's almost certainly going to be a major headache for your opponent. That's a guaranteed lost turn for a big character, potentially the company if you're opponent is wanting the big character to escape, or to protect the big character from a Ringwraith CvCC. The only way out is to wound her, and at 8/10 that's not going to be easy, and of course she may not be alone.

Now, that's if being tapped doesn't affect it. If tapping her discards the card, the trade off is either tap and lose the spell, or stay untapped at 5/10 and potentially keep the spell going. Seems fair. Either way, the defending company has still lost a turn having to remain and fight, and might well get several characters wounded in the process. Adunaphel can even retalliate again next turn before they get a chance to leave! Good timing with a vanilla AU and that's going to equal pain.
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 29, 2008 5:10 pm

Of course a perm is huge advantage, that's why I made it non duplicable, you have to keep the second one in hand till after you discard this one, you can't drop 3 and play multiple stuffs. What you mean play at a site, you mean a non haven site I suppose?

Holding up a big guy is nice, but he usually comes with other guys, and the guys you mention have same prowess almost as her, and if they team up they might win and you might lose 5 mp's (ok 10 body is high, but you might discard her). Also you can't play Bade/Yellow Face/faction/ characters/RW's word/or tap to cancel attack, or play something useful, depending on the site opponent's at. So I'm not so sure you get the long stick. I mean, the reason for this thread is exactly that tapping even two guys for a turn doesn't seem enough of profit to most people here. :?

If you don't want to tap against assassin or maia, your Aduni's really got balls :wink: Maybe we can state: Aduni must enter site each turn.
Well, you can always pack loads of Ruse and Sojourns to stay untapped, maybe it's not that big. Maybe we can state: Aduni must enter site each turn and tap. I mean, to become tapped is just so easy, to be tapped gives you bit more respite, you might play AU again. In fact, you can't even play an item if you are not allowed to become tapped...
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Postby marcos » Thu May 29, 2008 8:55 pm

what about: "discard this card at the end of any turn in wich Adunaphel is tapped or wounded"

this way the multiple copies of this same card can also help her to remain untapped...
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Postby Frodo » Fri May 30, 2008 2:35 am

I think Thorsten’s right in comparing this strategy to a Malady strategy. In my opinion, we should be aiming to make Adunaphel’s strategy a little less powerful than Malady.

My main problem with not allowing Adunaphel to tap (without releasing her charmee) is that it ruins one of the only other uses I can see for her at the site: sideboarding. There is simply no way I’m going to sacrifice all possible uses of my RW avatar just to take out an opponent’s key character! We all know that key characters can “taken out” all the time—getting wounded, corrupted, Maladied—and the opponent can still win the game. I would much prefer a RW who increased my chances of killing an opponent’s character, or wounding a select key character, thus making that character useless for a few turns. Also, if we start requiring a two-AU combo to let Adunaphel safely tap while charming somebody, it really weakens the whole strategy, and would encourage a player to just use AU for untapping the RW for a more boring and normal resource-gathering strategy.

I like this idea for AU. The way I see it, you need not keep the charm on the character the whole game; you can wait until the opponent moves more than a turn away from his lost soul, or wait until you yourself can wound this character at his site (now that you have time to draw up the perfect creature), then move away from the no-longer-useful chump, and try to charm some “fresh meat” instead!

Or Adunaphel can just attack the lost soul herself. This is very interesting because it gives her some personality; like a snake or a spider, she prefers to inject her victim with poison, wait for a safe moment (paralysis, or being left by his comrades), then make her strike. How frightening for the resource player, who knows he’s going to get attacked if he leaves!

Regarding Rivers, etc. I think that, no matter how weak or powerful AU is, the resource player always appreciates having SOME way to stop his opponent’s strategy. So I’m not that crazy about making her invulnerable to Rivers, etc., although I understand that these cards could really shut down her strategy. On the other hand, something about AU suggests a lone Adunaphel to me, so letting her have characters in her company doesn’t seem like a good route either. Is there no resource that lets you ignore hazard effects preventing you from doing nothing during the site phase? Here is one little suggestion if we’d like to encourage something different resource-wise: have AU include the line “Adunaphel may use rings (except the One Ring).” (Heh, she’s a lady, after all.) This would mean you could potentially turn her into a ranger. Btw, you could play this during the end of turn phase even if you were successfully Rivered.

The requirement that I do think is too tough is to require her to tap to play this card. You already can’t be wounded or the card won’t work (unlike Malady!!). Plus, the opponent can **selectively defend** by trying to avoid tapping his key guys.

So here would be my suggestion:

Adunaphel Unleashed V: Permanent-event.
Discard to untap Adunaphel.
Alternatively, during the site phase you may place this card with opponent’s tapped non-avatar, non-magic-using character at the same site. Dark-enchantment: Character does not untap normally during the untap phase and may not move. If placed on opponent's character, discard this card if Adunaphel is wounded or moves. Cannot be duplicated.

I’m not sure how I feel either way about the organization phase ability. Aesthetically, I like the idea of the card playing as a short-event and becoming a perm, rather than always being a perm, but if the card would be more useful (and not overpowered) as a perm, well then sure, why not.

I think allowing CVCC is fine, if she wants to risk it. That would be one reason the opponent would want to tap her out.

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Postby Jambo » Fri May 30, 2008 8:57 am

Last edited by Jambo on Fri May 30, 2008 9:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 30, 2008 9:06 am

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