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Council of Elrond • View topic - Morannon

Morannon

Where the Virtual Boyz plan their latest capers

Moderator: Virtual Card Development

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Apr 19, 2008 2:00 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:11 pm

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Apr 28, 2008 12:08 am

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Postby Frodo » Mon Apr 28, 2008 3:41 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Apr 28, 2008 10:57 am

why need can't be duplicated clause? You're afraid people might use it only to get to Barad-dur? If you enter the place and have the ring, you either win or loose, so you can duplicate all you like that won't matter. If you enter without the ring, the card offers no benefit at all.

Ringbearer being sent back by Terror is bit strange indeed.

I think you might skip the 'otherwise discard this card,' to save room. You think it's a problem if people stay at Barad-dur some turns to test the ring or whatever? It's not a requirement to have the ring when you move, likewise you made it 'at end of site phase' so you can still play Scroll there I guess, so it shouldn't be weird if you stay at Barad-dur without the One.
I think each turn you stay at Barad-dur is not only a turn wasted, but a very dangerous turn, so I don't agree it makes it weaker on the hazard end, you still have moved there via the ugly way. Only problem I see, is with people joining the company after this. You could have Galadriel with Nenya move there by herself, being virtually indestructable. And then you can have the wiz. with ringbearers move in via Nurn. Mind you, this is also possible now, but it would need to happen in the same turn.

I just think that if you must play and resolve this card the turn you want to move to Barad-dur, then it's a definite sideboard. If it's a definite siteboard, you'll get it in just before end of cycle. If it's end of cycle, you're not likely to get it back in hand quickly should it get discarded. So a single Chance of Being Lost could ruin it all. (this could be solved by making it 'not considered region movement', but that's even extra space).

Maybe the take to hand option is best then. You'd have to get back to Minas Tirith anyway if you are lead astray. It's the easiest solution, in stead of 'otherwise discard this card' just make it 'otherwise take this card back to hand.' I do think being able to play it some turn earlier and get it out of hand is a good tactical advantage, but that's just a concession then.
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Postby Frodo » Tue Apr 29, 2008 2:15 am

Hmm… those are good arguments, Thorsten!

Have you made the deck, or watched it at all? I’m wondering what others think. Specifically, has anyone ever WON with the card?

Maybe Thorsten’s right: we DON’T need a “otherwise, discard this card” clause, and we don’t need a “cannot be duplicated clause,” either, except maybe for theme because it’s a little weird to have all the attacks coming at you twice. There is one thing that’s being left out however.

>If you enter without the ring, the card offers no benefit at all.

That’s not completely true. It enables you to enter B-dur no matter what; regardless of Rivers, Lost in Free Domains, etc. Still, you have probably earned that benefit.

I may have forgotten about the fact that the Ringbearer can be in another company, but that seems okay.

>>I think each turn you stay at Barad-dur is not only a turn wasted, but a very dangerous turn… Only problem I see, is with people joining the company after this. You could have Galadriel with Nenya move there by herself, being virtually indestructable. And then you can have the wiz. with ringbearers move in via Nurn. Mind you, this is also possible now, but it would need to happen in the same turn.

Agreed that it remains dangerous, and perhaps it WOULD still be dangerous for Galadriel, IF we keep it so that everything on the card starting with “At the beginning of the mh, company faces 3 attacks…” keeps applying itself every turn this card is on the table, no matter where you are. This would mean that Galadriel, at least, is in trouble since she can’t Nenya at Barad-dur.

This is little weird thematically as well, though. Technically, you could move to Barad-dur, then move away somewhere (like Lorien), and squat elsewhere for another few turns and Sauron is still chasing you with all his goons. It seems more epic that he card can only be initiated once at Minas Tirith, and then potentially restarted there, but perhaps this isn’t how it comes across to everyone nor is that important.

Oops, just thought of more problems. Galadriel could actually just LEAVE Barad-dur, then another company with the ringbearer could sneak in there and still utilize Morannon. Maybe that’s not a negative at all though; Galadriel is the bluff. The only nice limitation is that the “company” must have at least one character survive so that the card remains.

Chance of Being Lost won’t work, because it IS special movement being used, not region movement. But I see your point.

It all comes down to whether or not people like the idea that you can stop this deck in one turn and shut it down completely (as compensation for the lack of rivers, etc. that can work), or if they see repeated tries as being fair.

If we let the card stay on table and you DON’T have to move yet, more tricky wording comes into play. We’d have to say something like “Playable during the organization phase on a company at Minas Tirith. The company may move to Barad-dûr (site path ). Whenever the company is moving to, or at, Barad-dur, at the beginning of the movement/ hazard phase, the company faces 3 attacks…”

Maybe that’s not too bad. Or is it?

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Postby Vastor Peredhil » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:23 am

Well,

in a game with beornd where he was going for Morannon,

one ren on the table was enought to stop him cold, as he had to face him as a creature and afterwards I could tap ren for CCs, also the cards you need in hand are many...
to have either some people untapped to help with corruption or face the strikes so that the ringbearer can stay untapped depending on what your hand has in stall.

he had the ring in play on ARagorn so he needed 2 x roll of 8

mfg Nicolai
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Tue Apr 29, 2008 11:02 am

Well my gccg inaptitude has prevented me from playing a game with Morannon V so far, but I have made attempt at a deck yes, thinking maybe to try it at Worlds, so I won't give it all away, but suffice to say that it's hard, and using Galadriel as decoy was one of my options, sneeking the other ones in around the back. :wink: That way you can leave the nazguls on the table yourself and Ren/Khamul doesn't trouble you.
This also scores you bigtime in coolness points of course!
As Vastor says, Ren is not so nice. Then again, there are many things not so nice. It's hard but it should be doable, however how you'll manage on Denethor I don't know, haha. And I'm also known to fail many rolls on the One...

Call me strange Frodo, but I always thought that Morannon represented just what it refers to: passing into Mordor by way of the Morannon, and specifically Aragorn standing in front of the gates challenging Sauron. Sauron already thinks Gorn has the ring in Minas Tirith, hence the preemptive strike there. Of course he would give chase eventually if Gorn decided to hike back to Lorien, but that's not the point of the card. I'd say, the attacks on the card just mention the opposition at the Black Gate. Therefore, each time you try to get to Barad-dur but fail, you have to pass through the gate again, defying the opposition there. Yet, as we know, the ringbearer did not pass that way, and so I think it's okay that this card doesn't require to be played on the ringbearer.

Since I do agree it's stupid you pass through the gate and then twiddle your thumbs at Barad-dur for some turns, I proposed to bring back the card to hand should you not get there, or should you 'get there' without the One (representing you didn't get there).
In other words, I think the one turn requirement is fine, but not the discard effect. You then go back to Minas Tirith to try again. You can leave by other ways than by Morannon, so I wouldn't leave the card on table just for the attacks.
Remains to be seen whether it should be playable on a comp. at MT whether they move or not, I would prefer that, but I agree with you that it is cumbersome to rephrase it in such fashion and it might take too many words, I'll have a look how it works out in sum.

minor stuff:
Agreed on the river advantage, but also agreed on the earned factor :wink:
Galadriel can play Nenya anywhere she likes, only the cc bonus doesn't apply at B-dur.
So the fact that the sitepaht is mentioned makes it special movement, you don't need to mention it's special movement?
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Thu May 01, 2008 2:22 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sat May 03, 2008 3:35 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sun May 04, 2008 10:48 am

yeah that would be really cool, to win by letting your opponent dunk! It would finally give Aragorn and company the credit they deserve for offering themselves up at the Gates...
But of course, the ringbearer had some part to play as well. Maybe make it a draw then? that's already a net gain/loss of 6 tp's more or less...

Your discard clause seemed to suggest that if you don't arrive at B-dur or without the ring, Sauron wouldn't exactly feel challenged and would not come out. It would be bussiness as usual, like if you go to B-dur now you only meet some wary Trolls. I don't feel you need to go back to Minas Tirith and repeat the challenge either.
We could move the attacks to beginning site phase at B-dur, I don't see what the difference is between facing the attacks after the hazards or before, it will usually only get harder. In fact, opponent has more time now to slab some more nazguls on the table.

How about making it about travelling to Cirith Gorgor, and there challenging Sauron? You would have two less HL and one less draw, but rest would be the same. The auto at Cirith Gorgor is actually worse than B-dur.

Morannon V: playable on comp. at Minas Tirith. A company at Cirith Gorgor may choose to tap this card (this card doesn't untap). If tapped, once during each site phase at a site in Udun/Gorgoroth the company faces the following attacks (-). . If tapped, you may replace site with Barad-dur. If this card is tapped and Aragorn etc. is at Barad-dur bearing The One Ring, at the end of site phase...

This is actually more or less like the original :wink: How and when you get from Minas Tirith to Cirith Gorgor doesn't matter, only that you get there. Also you can play Scroll at Cirith Gorgor and test there and then still move to B-dur for the challenge, so you can use the ring against the attacks without suffering possible ring-hazards. If you move to B-dur and don't score the ring, you still have to face the attacks each turn.

Also you can wait at Cirith Gorgor for the right moment. This is benificial for yourself if you want to sneak in via the back, or for a possible card and move against a ring-dunk at Mount Doom.

nb. Jambo perhaps you can move this part about Morannon to a Morannon V thread at this section? I suppose this isn't about playtesting anymore.
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Postby Frodo » Sun May 04, 2008 5:26 pm

Wow... this card is starting to get really fascinating, now. I like your rather original suggestion of site-hopping. And a tie!!! What an ingenious idea, so thematic as well... but does it fit the criteria of game-balance? In other words, is it so incredibly difficult for Sudden Call (V) to be pulled off that the Aragorn player deserves to win completely? Probably not... I think that a tie is the right way to go. It's so interesting theme-wise that we should probably adjust the cards to fit this result, rather than the other way around.

Ah, it was the discard clause of Morannon that made you wonder about my intentions with Sauron. Understood.

The only difference between facing the attacks before or after is that if you face them before, it feels more like you are facing opposition on the way (during the journey). But perhaps that doesn't matter; book-wise, Sauron waited until they reached the end before launching his surprise. (Makes me wish we had room for haz player to launch a "surprise" from the discard pile.) Do you want to try rewording the card with your suggestions, Thorsten?

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 05, 2008 11:36 pm

Last edited by Thorsten the Traveller on Wed May 07, 2008 10:31 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Vastor Peredhil » Tue May 06, 2008 7:43 am

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Postby BoderHamster » Tue May 06, 2008 2:56 pm

I don't think we should interact Marronon with cracks of doom and dunking the ring in any way!!!
because this is already difficult enough without it!!!!
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