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Council of Elrond • View topic - First of the Order

First of the Order

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First of the Order

Postby Jambo » Sat May 10, 2008 11:24 am

This card works really well and it's a lot better than before, however, one thing that Saruman really needs, and possibly Ben might agree with me here, is a corruption check helper for himself!

First of the Order:
Playable on Saruman during the organization phase. Tap First of the Order to give a +2 to a corruption check for a character other than Saruman in Saruman's company. If untapped, you may discard this card to give Saruman a +2 to a corruption check. Cannot be duplicated.

It's slightly harder to play, now requiring the org phase, but at least it might help Saruman with two of his abilities: using Palantiri and using spells. Plus, that extra First of the Order that you might pack in the deck is no longer a redundant card.
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Postby Ringbearer » Sat May 10, 2008 1:36 pm

[offtopic] It still doesnt protect him from wolves or skinchanger ;) [/offtopic].

It might be a good idea, although Ben idnt play spells vs me, so I have no real idea how bad spells are for Saruman. Maybe its because he played a lot of corruption that it backfired ;)
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Postby Bandobras Took » Sat May 10, 2008 3:31 pm

The spells were what I used vs. everybody else before rethinking my canceling strategy, and Saruman got nailed a couple of times by the sorcery ccs, which are extremely difficult on an active FW as they stand a good chance of tapping said Wizard out, especially if he's using Never Refuse to avoid the aforementioned Skin-Changers. I believe I like this idea, and it would mean that a Virtual Many-Coloured Robes could actually use First of the Order (First of the Order, Focus Palantir, White Light Broken . . . that would be some interesting stuff).
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Postby Frodo » Sat May 10, 2008 6:11 pm

I have a really crazy suggestion for this card! (uh-oh, joe always begins his sentences with that line...)

I can see that we really want Saruman to be doing what he does in the novels: spell-blasting and palantir-gazing. However, the Saruman card just doesn't reflect that--it gives him too high a negative corruption bonus, and seems to be designed so that he WILL corrupt. Yet, if we make it too easy for Saruman to completely avoid corruption--give him a positive instead, or remove spell CCs--it doesn't seem to reflect the corruption dangers enough.

SO, what if we retargetted the negative effects of a failed corruption check by doing something that IS very thematic of Saruman:

"If Saruman would be eliminated by a corruption check from a spell, discard a character in his company instead."

!

He could still be targetted by Echoes, Ren, normally.This would be a nice built-in protection for Saruman, yet make it so that he's more vulnerable when he's completely alone, as opposed to when he's surrounded by his army. The FW hero player will be heroically making these really high CC checks on Saruman's spells, thus reflecting Saurman's boldness and heedlessness, and if he actually fails one, poof! somebody else gets the blame.

Ooh, we could even say something like:

"If Saruman would be eliminated by a corruption check from a spell, discard a character in his company instead (choose Wormtongue if available)."

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Postby Bandobras Took » Sat May 10, 2008 6:50 pm

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Postby Jambo » Sun May 11, 2008 9:16 am

what would happen if there wasn't a character in Saruman's company?

Think I'd still prefer the one-off cc boost for Saruman, as it allows the player to use Saruman's specials, but at the same time not get carried away with it. :)
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Postby Balin » Mon May 12, 2008 7:46 am

__

Let them come! There is one dwarf yet in Moria that still draws breath!
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Postby marcos » Mon May 12, 2008 8:51 pm

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Postby Frodo » Tue May 13, 2008 5:37 am

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Postby Jambo » Tue May 13, 2008 6:52 am

Last edited by Jambo on Thu May 15, 2008 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 14, 2008 10:35 am

Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Postby Jambo » Wed May 14, 2008 10:55 am

One thing to think about is the ramifications of how Saruman interacts with the One Ring and particularly with dunk decks if one can avoid Saruman being eliminated after failing a cc. Can he stay at Mount Doom and repeatedly try to dunk if he fails?

One upside is that it might encourage people to use the One Ring with Saruman in a way other than dunking or Morannon, i.e. going around and causing havoc with it. :)

The penalty should be severe. I like the idea of hand size reduction, but perhaps it's not enough simply on its own?
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed May 14, 2008 11:10 am

well in general handsize is major in the game, ask people who've been FoIS-ed. :wink: If somebody plays Will Shaken on you, what do you chose?

On average people don't last long with the ring, especially not when they're at Mount Doom. Must be funny if you are there and each turn chars around you disappear. Then The Ring Will Have but One Master is played on you, you definitely end up a lonely Saruman. :D

Having Cracks in hand each turn is already somewhat of a difficulty, more so if handsize is reduced. And opponent can just cycle and call anyway. But I agree I had thought FotO especially to be a FW helper, since he's got the damned -1, and since he's got all sorts of stuff that gives him corruption. If the normal Saruman gets corrupted, just play the FW :wink:

Would be nice if the One is actually used indeed!

Maybe the rotation mechanism can be used to keep track of number of times failing cc. If you fail 4 times, Saruman gets eliminated (and you lose?).
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Postby Bandobras Took » Wed May 14, 2008 1:39 pm

Since Fallen Saruman has an innate -1 to ccs, he needs more help in that area than any other FW. As far as Hero Saruman goes I don't like losing handsize when his ability is to bring spells back to hand -- you're simply trading one drawback for another.
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Postby Jambo » Thu May 15, 2008 8:08 am

I think for the purpose of this game, we have to assume that hero Saruman is not corrupt and represents the Saruman that first came to the shores of Middle-earth. Likewise for Pallando, Radagast and Alatar. If we're going down the route that Saruman is already innately corrupt, then perhaps the same could be said for all the non-Gandalf wizards...

The -1 to ccs for Fallen Saruman suggests that ICE definitely went with this theory for the Fallen version. It's an unfortunate addition in my opinion, since being Fallen already suggests that the wizard has lost his way; after all, they can recruit orcs and trolls and slay heroes. The fact that a Fallen wizard can still be eliminated through corruption is a concept that's hard to fully grasp.

If it boils down to one or the other, I'd prefer to improve Saruman's chances when using his own abilities (palantiri/spells) than dream up an entirely new concept for Saruman and corruption. While the new concept would be great for Fallen Saruman, I'm not sure it's totally applicable for the hero Saruman, who should be open to nasty effects of corruption just like the others. Otherwise, Gandalf and Radagast's +1 to ccs will be somewhat dwarfed in comparison.
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