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Council of Elrond • View topic - Nazgul are Abroad and Half an Eye Open

Nazgul are Abroad and Half an Eye Open

Where the Virtual Boyz plan their latest capers

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Postby Jambo » Fri May 02, 2008 10:39 am

Heh, just thought of another thing. Long Dark Reach costs 2 Nazgul from underneath TNaA, and yet only costs against the hazard limit from underneath HaEO! Arrrgh.

One of my decks uses a combination of both TNaA and HaEO and Long Dark Reach, hence the reason I noticed this.

Solution?

Add LDR to the list of exceptions on HaEO?
Add LDR to the list of exceptions for both?
Make the list of exceptions on HaEO cost two Nazgul to play...lol?

Or, hopefully someone else will come up with a better, more ingenious solution! :)
Last edited by Jambo on Fri May 02, 2008 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Jambo » Fri May 02, 2008 11:08 am

Edit :

Glad no one quoted me. ;)

Exile of Solitude can be played on an at Home during the movement/hazard phase, but wouldn't be able to be played on guard from underneath HaEO (due to the restrictions on what is allowed to be played from underneath HaEO).
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Postby Jambo » Sat May 03, 2008 8:47 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sat May 03, 2008 9:23 am

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Postby Jambo » Sat May 03, 2008 9:37 am

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Postby marcos » Sat May 03, 2008 3:12 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sun May 04, 2008 12:15 am

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Postby Jambo » Sun May 04, 2008 9:13 am

Recycling abuse should no longer even be a possibility since the card is no longer discarded if there are no cards underneath it.

Frodo, my worries as you suspect are indeed when you play TNaA and HaEO together. The majority of dedicated LDR decks will use both Nazgul and Dragons. Therefore, LDR should be equally difficult from both.

The issue with Fell Beast is indeed a strange one. To me both effects of the card clearly target a Nazgul creature. Moreover, the card can never not target a Nazgul creature (unless of course someone is trying to play the card for no effect ;)). Fell Beast has no alternative effect which can target an event or another creature type. If the ability to target a Nazgul creature was indirect or not always certain, like LDR for instance, then yes, my belief is there would be an issue. The fact a Nazgul follows in the next chain of effects for the keyability option shouldn't matter..... should it?

I'm fine with the freebies targeting Ahunts and at Homes, but I'm still hesitant over the number of freeibies that can be played from underneath just one. There are many ways to increase the hazard limit, e.g. Parsimony on Agburanar, Daelomin at Home, Power Built by Waiting, Shadow or Mordor, that maybe 2 per turn is excessive on its own. Two of these down will of course give 2 free anyway.

Moreover, the recent CoE digest allows cards that affect prowess and /or body to be played after strike assignment. Therefore, all these booster cards can all be played once the dragon attack is no longer able to be cancelled (apart from Prowess of Age which specifically says it has to be played before strikes are assigned)!

Trying these out might be in order before a final decision is made, but what I would say is dedicated LDR decks are already quite competitive.
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sun May 04, 2008 11:33 am

@Memories Stolen. Cave-drake is of course easiest to play, but with Fever/Desolation/Frenzy the idea is this card will also make the uniques see more play. Either way, if Thrain/Thranduil and Elladan are the only ranger/sage/warrior in the company, I will very gladly sacrifice a cave-drake to disable them from tapping for marvels/rivers, or in fact protect against Beorning skin-changers. The card is powerful, without a timely marvels you're doomed, as were both Niniel and Turin. :wink:

@HaEO recycling: Of course you need 3 of them (hence my: "play them both with a third HaEO"), so you can't start right away, unless you take the risky road and play HaEO from sideboard. But the recycling comes with a vengence at the end, when opponent has no more marvels left anyway.
You can add other easily playable stuff to buff the cave-drake attack, so you needn't just play for the summons, the drake is played often enough to ensure good cycling. Add some Desolation just to buff it up more. Or Memories like I suggested.

The question is, will you have two on the table, typically? If you discard upon emptying, then sure, because you can recycle. If you don't discard, opponent might not want to marvel and weather it rather than discard, so you'd have to discard it yourself. Then the up side is you have more free hazards. I think 1 per HaEO is enough. Like Jambo says, there are other ways also to increase HL, making it 2 also means 4 and 6 are possible.

And I will withhold my completely unsound comments from the Fell Beast issue :wink:
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Postby Frodo » Mon May 05, 2008 4:59 am

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Postby Jambo » Mon May 05, 2008 9:15 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Mon May 05, 2008 11:07 am

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Postby marcos » Mon May 05, 2008 9:22 pm

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Postby Frodo » Thu May 08, 2008 3:32 am

In theory I like the discarding of two athomes idea, but Thorsten spelled out the issue--discarding two Nazguls is far more of a penalty, not just because they are useful as events, but mainly because they *are useful in the playdeck* as prime targets of LDR itself. However, the dragon athomes CANNOT be targets of LDR, therefore it doesn't cost a haz player anything to dump them. We can easily imagine a deck with 9 nazguls and 9 dragon at homes and 3 Dragons (= 12 creatures) a bunch of LDRs (1 every 1.5 turns played perhaps). So I am leaning towards leaving the restrictions.

However, Thorsten read my mind when he made the comment about Parsimony... I realized the other night that when Parsimony was excluded, this was only because hazards were infinite on Dragons then, and I had realized that Parsimony could be used too easily as a HL-booster on any company. There's no reason to exclude it if only 1 or 2 hazs are now free. Even more importantly, I kept thinking "whether we make 1 or 2 hazs free is still not going to give HeO the boost it needs, or fix it problems"; then I realized that allowing PARSIMONY could do just that. 'Cause one problem with the deck is simply holding onto the dragons and/or the possible drakes that you might need... this would help with the clog, AND the access. To explain further I'll answer Thorsten's query about why I was sb-ing for dragons if you only need one with Desolation. I have found that the most playability with Dragon attacks comes NOT from Desolation, etc. but strategically figuring out where the opponent will wander, sbing the right ahunt, then keying Ahunts to their very special regions (like Smaug Ahunt to Horse Plains or the other guy to mirkwood; OR from keying dragon creatures to their Doors of Night "hunting areas", like Bairanax, Scorba, etc. But this is still a very difficult metagame to play because even if you choose correctly, you might not draw the card up. Parsimony would make it more possible to get the card you need, though you'd still need to sb the dragon into the discard pile.

So let's take Jambo's new versions and keep the restriction clauses, save that Parsimony is now allowed, for the new batch of playtesting. (But if people really think the worries about LDR are unfounded and we can keep the discard an athome thing, okay.)

Btw, does Prowess of Age give the large bonuses (+4, +9) PER COPY of PoA played, or is that the total bonus provided when multiple copies are played? If it's the total bonus only, then let's keep this restricted. If it's PER COPY, then the old text that allows this card to be played "for its prowess bonus only" should remain, since this might be the **only way** such a combo will ever see the light of play.

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Postby Jambo » Thu May 08, 2008 7:47 am

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