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Council of Elrond • View topic - Heros wizards : level problem

Heros wizards : level problem

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Postby BoderHamster » Fri Sep 04, 2009 12:04 pm

yeah, that is true, but if every wizard has one thing where he is very special, than at least there is a reason to play him in a specific deck!

Maybe we shouldn~t make a saruman secific card out of it... and make it weaker... maybe it should just be a card that is easy playable for saruman, and playable by all wizards with a little efford!

maybe it is only playable in Isengard, which meant for every other wizard to travel there... except for Saruman.
This would be a good Indirect way to push him, whichout pushing him over the top!
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Postby Bandobras Took » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:30 pm

I agree with Thorsten about returning to the site of origin. I made that effect of the card extremely weak (only works on Saruman, not his whole company, and you have to discard the card to prevent one effect, so two Skin-Changers would still hit him).

To grab a spell without tapping is indeed good, but it is counterbalanced by having to hold on to it during your opponent's turn before you can use it.

Saruman is the only one of the hero wizards for whom both his abilities require tapping. Pallando doesn't have to tap for extra hand size, Gandalf doesn't have to tap for +1 to ccs, etc. It's not too much to give him a card that must be drawn into that alleviates this, especially since both of Saruman's abilities also force corruption checks. (Given my luck with corruption checks, that's a sufficient balancing factor right there. :) )
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Postby marcos » Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:33 pm

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Mon Sep 07, 2009 7:53 pm

Stone-age did not end because man ran out of rocks.
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby BoderHamster » Sat Aug 21, 2010 4:34 pm

I still don't agree with the "assumption" that a new V-card should not make any old card obsolete.

Where is that stated?
And why?

I mean this is a Tccg... in a tccg there allways come out cards that make old ones obsolete. That's the nature of the game.
Sometimes this is something bad... but most times this is a nescessary evil... because sometimes specific cards need a boost, to make the overall game better!
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby Bandobras Took » Sat Aug 21, 2010 5:16 pm

Because making old cards obsolete is bad design from the point of view of revitalizing a game. If Virtual Cards gain official acceptance, then new cards which obsolete old ones in every way will make more than a few people unhappy, unless the original cards were completely worthless, anyway.

Note that the idea is to refrain from making old cards completely obsolete, not to avoid making new cards that are more generally useful. A good example is Bard. The Virtual Bard rocks against Dragons. The old Bard is still the better choice for quickly bringing the Men of Northern Rhovanion faction. People will more often want to rock against Dragons, but the old Bard will still have a use.
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby BoderHamster » Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:24 am

I totally agree with you Bandoras...
but there is a minor thing you are missing I believe.

Maybe I came on to strong with my first argument, but what I generally meant was the following:

YES, it is bad design to make old playable cards obsolete. (I'm not talking about the good cards here, I'm just talking about cards that are somehow playable in a certain deck!)

But, is is not bad design, to make a really bad card obsolete. (that wasn't played in any match at all, except for sealed when you had to play it because you had nothing else. I know that some of these cards have to exist for sealed. But this is something we do not have to consider in V-card which are totally for deck construction.)
I mean what is the reason for having a card in the game that nobody plays anyways... so a newer, even just better version might enrich the game. As long as it opens new strategy instead of just pushing existing ones!
Maybe before this kind of strategy was unplayable, because the cards were just plain BAD. Wouldn't it be good design to revamp certain cards to make this strategy viable?

And here is the most important thing:
Sometimes it is the best choice to just make an old card better, instead of making a different one. Because the original design was very good. But the mechanic applied to it was not play tested enough. So it just turned to be outright bad.
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby marcos » Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:07 pm

i think in this game all cards are useful, you just have to adapt your deck to them. There aren't any bad cards, that is why we don't want them to be obsolete.
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Aug 25, 2010 7:45 pm

Hmm, there's quite a few cards I've never played though, and I play rather adventurous decks normally and have played for over a decade.

But I agree with the general idea of finding alternative uses, obsolete means it does the same and better/more as another card.
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby BoderHamster » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:41 pm

I believe it is very sad that you limit yourself as a designer by this rule: never make anything obsolete....

please tell me what benefit you see in this agenda for the game?
You allways tell me there is this rule... but never actually why you think it is valid!
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby Bandobras Took » Sat Sep 11, 2010 9:59 pm

I already explained why above; I have little desire to repeat myself. Well, in this instance, at least. :)
Remember, NetRep rulings are official. This does not necessarily mean they are correct.

You probably aren't playing Fallen Wizards .
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:49 pm

If you design a new card that does exactly the same as another card AND more/better, you take away absolutely any incentive of using the original card (other than for cool artwork or nostalgia).
Making useless cards cannot be the objective of any good game design.
Whether the original card was crappy in the first place is not relevant.
So basically we are only allowed to make obsolete cards more obsolete, and as crappy as some cards might be, none of them are obsolete (maybe 1 or 2 might be though, but none come to mind right now).

I'm a patient man, always prepared to explain myself once more. :wink:
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby BoderHamster » Sun Sep 19, 2010 4:48 pm

Yeah but wouldn't it enrich the game to have more stategies that are competetive?

And so, if some aren't, because the cards supporting them are totally weak. Wouldn't that be a reason to make new versions of cards that are just better than the old ones, to bring them up to the powerlevel of the other cards.
For example, there are some very interesting cards for diplomats in the game (Menchanicaly wise but most of them are so weak in the game that they are never played) But why do we deny ourself the ability to reuse those idears from the original game. Why do we have to artifically force us to find obscure NEW cards that do something new, when it maybe would be better to rehash the old ones?

I'm not saying we should do this all the time, and probably it should be done very few times.
But I don't understand why you have to say NEVER.... isn'T that that worst case scenario in designing something...? Limiting yourself by rules which maybe should be broken sometimes to make the game better?

I'm not asking you to throw the rule overboard... but rather to consider that it sometimes might be the better option to make an old card obsolete instead of forcing yourself to come up with a new clumsy idear, when the orignal design was brilliant. But the card never used because it was all out crap.

And your argumentation of saying that No card is useless is flawed i believe.
There are numerous ME cards that I've never seen in active play... not even in sealed.
I can make a list of them if you insist, but I believe you can admite that without me making that efford.
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby Vastor Peredhil » Sun Sep 19, 2010 8:32 pm

Still, trust me I have made so many decks over the last years. . .

I be waiting for a list if you so thing, but you are talking to people who played before you even knew the game, and who play almost every other week, so they know all cards and their uses, so you might not have found them for the crap card you have in mind

yours Vastor
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Re: Heros wizards : level problem

Postby Jose-san » Tue Mar 22, 2011 1:15 pm

In my Arda deck I gave Saruman these abilities:

- Tap Saruman to put a spell from the discard pile on your hand (not only at the end of the turn phase).
- Wound a character in his company to untap Saruman.
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