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Council of Elrond • View topic - Black Rider, They Ride Together and Heralded Lord V

Black Rider, They Ride Together and Heralded Lord V

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Postby marcos » Thu May 28, 2009 4:52 pm

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Postby Frodo » Fri May 29, 2009 9:25 pm

Whoops, I worded my new TRT pretty badly. I also forgot that some RWs can easily hold followers under DI, thus negating the need for Black Horses at all. I think reposting on this page the text of the new virtual TRT and Black Rider might help us review the issues:

They Ride Together Virtual (Leon’s version)
Permanent event. You may play any number of Ringwraith followers in your organization phase. If at least six of your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, they may use region movement and you may tap this card when they move to a non-Darkhaven site not in or adjacent to Gorgoroth; their company must move again. If tapped, this card is worth 1 marshalling point for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [71 words]

Black Rider Virtual
Permanent event. During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. These Black Horses may be played as if in hand. If at least half your Ringwraiths control a Black Horse, their company is in Black Rider mode and may move to non-Darkhaven sites. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [72 words]

Joe’s Suggestion (newly worded):
“If you have at least 6 Ringwraiths and their company is in Black Rider Mode…”

The above should make it clear that the first requirement is to have at least 6 Ringwraiths, and the second requirement is to be in Black Rider mode.

Regarding my analysis of when you’d have 6 BH, I wrote that “if you start two BR (V), you wouldn't have 6 Black Horses in your movement phase until 4th turn (since you play the 5th and 6th at the end of your 3rd turn),” and that this was “a turn later than I’d like.” What I meant by this was that this is absolute fastest one could feasibly hope to get 6 RWs on horses out. I don’t think this strategy is highly unlikely, as long as you don’t commit yourself to one particular RW as your RW (of course, with 9 RWs in deck, you’ll have one in play first turn). Anyway, it doesn’t really matter, because I was only analyzing if TRT would be TOO STRONG with my proposed additions by trying to figure that fastest possible play of RWs. If people think 6 RWs by turn 3 is extraordinarily unlikely (thus granting you about 3 turns to take advantage of extra movements and CVCC), this only adds to my argument that TRT requiring 6 Black Horses is too great a challenge. Remember too that in the old TRT, there was no requirement to be in any mode or have any horses in order to move again and gain the TRT bonus.

FINAL QUESTION OF STRENGTH OF NOT REQURING 6 BLACK HORSES
We made TRT a little easier to pull off (6 MP and two extra movements of it) by lowering the requirement to 6 RW. Now I am on the fence as to whether having TRT require only Black Rider mode is too strong.

If it’s not already clear to everyone, my new clause suggestion to TRT would now require the 6 RWs to use either Black Rider Virtual (which means you need 3 Black Horses), or original Black Rider plus something to let you hold influence over all those RWs (e.g., Black Horses). In other words, I am reducing the amount of Black Horses needed from 6 to to 3, or else you use your RW’s DI, which means with a free Uvatha follower, Witch-King can maintain six followers/company of 7 without needing ANY Black Horses, and someone like Uvatha with 5 DI can maintain five follwers/company 6 without any Black Horses. Of course, you may not draw up the right RWs at the right time, so it seems likely to me (Marcos?) that a player will always play A FEW Black Horses. So again, I think that you will likely have 3 Black Horses with 6 RW if you are going to original Black Rider route. But remember if you make a pact with original Black Rider, your fate is sealed: you can’t EVER move to a Darkhaven, or you lose all your followers!! So once again, this encourages people to use Black Horse.

Btw, I just realized Indur Unleashed (V) puts the whole company in Black Rider mode, too. (Of course, so does Black Rider original anyway).

>Your argument about turns is solved if BR virtual can pull BR virtual from sideboard, so why not do that?

I wasn’t arguing that the Black Horses are being played too slowly. I was arguing that the RWs will only come up so quickly, so I don’t see WHY anybody would need to play more than 6 Black Horses before turn 3’s end. Therefore, I don’t see why allowing the pull of BR virtual from BR virtual will help. (Did I miss anything?)

There’s only one thing that will help now: lowering the amount of Black Horses required by TRT. Either we go with my clause, believing that this will assist the deck, or we go without it.

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri May 29, 2009 11:29 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sat May 30, 2009 12:10 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sat May 30, 2009 9:16 am

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Postby marcos » Sat May 30, 2009 12:29 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sat May 30, 2009 6:03 pm

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Postby Frodo » Fri Jun 05, 2009 4:38 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Jun 05, 2009 10:35 am

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Postby BoderHamster » Fri Jun 05, 2009 12:09 pm

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Postby Leon » Fri Jun 05, 2009 6:24 pm

My point was mainly to have Black Rider and TRT as separate cards and we have agreed on that. I think that Marcos last version is ok and up for playtesting.
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:17 pm

actually, Marcos' last TRT version doesn't require any horse...
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Postby marcos » Fri Jun 05, 2009 7:20 pm

TRT no, but black rider does
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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sat Jun 06, 2009 9:43 am

yes but this discussion is about countering TRT, and you can move with TRT without horses, so that's not right imo, or how do you propose to counter TRT?
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Postby marcos » Sat Jun 06, 2009 12:10 pm

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