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Council of Elrond • View topic - They ride together???

They ride together???

Moderator: VC Admins

Postby marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:13 am

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Wed Feb 25, 2009 11:40 am

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Postby BoderHamster » Wed Feb 25, 2009 1:52 pm

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Postby marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 2:02 pm

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Postby BoderHamster » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:38 pm

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Postby marcos » Wed Feb 25, 2009 3:43 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:44 pm

Hey Guys, sorry I missed this important conversation thread for so long. Thanks for Boder, Thorsten, and Marcos for bringing up some still-existing problems with the card.

Thorsten’s edit prevents a loophole that I somehow didn’t recognize at all: after moving your 9 RWs once, you can tap all 3 TRT copies in response to each other, and get all the points immediately! (Especially since the “allow you to move again” can be ignored.) This loophole was unintentional.

I actually was aware of the other thematic and gameplay problems of the card already, but I wasn’t sure how to reword the card to fix them all. For example, in the current version, once the player moves for the third time, his last copy of TRT taps and the MPs are now guaranteed, even if all 9 of the RWs die! I always thought this was an utter shame, particularly since players like Marcos would save their most dangerous movement for the last m/h (like to a Dragon’s Lair).

There are still some problems that Thorsten’s version doesn’t address, but perhaps we don’t think they are a big deal.

PROBLEMS
1) One thing that stinks is that you can still move back and forth between the SAME TWO SITES for all your movements that turn, just like in the current version of this V-card. If we agreed this was dumb, we could instead write: “it may move again using region movement to a site not already used by them this turn.” What’s cool about this is that I think we could then allow for “non-haven” site traveling, rather than just border free and ruins, because the cheesy movement to Barad-dur could only happen once! In addition, it means that the RW player could plan a safer first movement to somewhere like B-dur to guarantee his getting of at least 3 MPs before he starts more difficult movements and opens up the possibility of his precious 9 actually getting killed. In this respect, moving once to B-dur is not very cheesy at all, it’s rather thematic! What do you we think?
2) Don’t forget that TRT will UNTAP ON YOUR NEXT TURN. So the way it is worded now, both in the current version and Thorsten’s, if the RW player gets another turn all of his TRTS will untap… and he has to move again to try and reclaim those MPs. You can look at this optimistically and say, “Well, that’s fine, the RW player just has time things just right, or he can try moving again.” But a nightmare scenario is quite likely: you have moved your company two or three times, scored, say, 6 MP, then your opponent kills one or two RWs, preventing you from the final 3 MP. No problem, right? Wrong. The Council isn’t called, and now it’s your next turn. Your copies of TRT untap, leaving you with 0 MP… and you can’t try to move again, because your eight and ninth RW are dead!! If we thought this was problem, we could merely say “this card never untaps”, to guarantee you the MPs for each of your valiant rides. However, this introduces a NEW problem, in that it means you can never use TRT to gain more than one extra movement per game. Aarrgh!

Here are some other minor edits:
Rewrite: “If you have all nine Ringwraiths in play, tap one copy of this card when
Writing it this way allows us to save 12 whole words!

Thorsten brought up that we don’t need “after opponent plays a ring.” I missed something here; certainly being allowed to stack two Black Horses per turn (or three or four with an additional TRT out) can speed things up for you, can’t it? So this is still a useful ability.

Side Note: It would be interesting if instead of saying “after opponent plays a ring” we wrote “after any ring is played.” Rings are not commonly played by minion decks, and this could be a cool extra benefit! What do we think?

RE Terror Heralds Doom: Boder, originally the designers were stumped because the Balrog set had so much many useful hazard artwork, and we couldn’t find the right artwork match in other sets. However, we did try to limit things a bit; you will never need to use 3 of the same Balrog card with V-cards. Also, there should be a posting regarding Virtual Tournaments, if most of us are in agreement: When playing in a non-online face- Virtual Tournament, if you do not own the original version of a Virtual Card, you may make a printout of that card, place the printout over any sleeved card with a burning-eye back, and insert the Virtual text over that printout. If you like, the printout can also be the Virtual Card itself.

--Frodo
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Postby BoderHamster » Sun Apr 19, 2009 6:58 pm

Why don't we change the card to work more like a missioncard...
where you don't need three copies of the card, but only one that gives MORE MP???

so we could for example solve those movement problems more easilie...because you would have a maximum of one card in play!!!

Especialy I don't like having the RW move three movementphases in one turn.... because it seems a little bit overkill!!! and unrealisitic!

Also it is quiet stupid to trie to move RWs with Fell rider...because then each turn their Mode card and the other RWs are discarded...
maybe we should add a clause to prevent that???
or is that intended.... and if yes... why did you inclued that card in the first place... or is there something I miss how it is good to use The mode card?
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Postby marcos » Sun Apr 19, 2009 7:58 pm

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Postby Frodo » Sun Apr 19, 2009 8:01 pm

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Postby Thorsten the Traveller » Sun Apr 19, 2009 10:31 pm

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Postby Frodo » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:04 am

Okay, I checked all the proposed versions to see if they would fit in the MS-Word copy. All of them fit, except Eric’s second version (just proposed); that one is about seven words too many. However, I made a revised version of Eric’s that is exactly enough (I think…).

Remaining issues:
1) Thorsten, does the phrase “To a site not already used by them this turn…” help at all?
2) In all of the new proposals, the RW player only has to move three times to get the 9 MP. Strangely enough, if you are trying to chase your opponent down and attack him and he’s at a dark-hold or one of your Darkhavens, but you want to have all three of your TRTS tapped, it means you have to move four times. However, in Eric’s second version, if you tap TRT even once to move again, you could NOT hunt down your opponent at these sites (even on your last movement), because such movement is prohibited! This really needs to be changed…

But here are the proposals. Note that this isn’t a motion; we should still discuss this more.

They Ride Together V: permanent-event

JOE’S REVISED VERSION OF ERIC’S SECOND VERSION
During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Rider or Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand and you may play any number of Ringwraith followers in a turn. Your Ringwraith’s company has no size limit. If you have all nine Ringwraiths in play, tap this card when the company has moved to a non-Darkhaven/non-Darkhold site; it may move again using region movement. You may chose to keep this card tapped during the untap phase. If tapped, this card is worth 1 MP for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [112 words]

ERIC’S SECOND VERSION
During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Rider or Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand and you may play any number of Ringwraith followers in a turn. Your Ringwraith’s company has no size limit. If you have all nine Ringwraiths in play, tap this card: you may move with region movement to non-Darkhaven/non-Dark-hold sites. If tapped, invert this card once you have moved to move again. You may chose to return this card to tapped status during the untap phase. If inverted this card is worth 1 MP for every 3 Ringwraiths you have in play. [119 words]

JOE’S NEW VERSION
During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Rider or Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand and you may play any number of Ringwraith followers in a turn. Your Ringwraith’s company has no size limit. If you have all nine Ringwraiths in play, tap this card when the company moves to a non-Darkhaven; it may
move again using region movement. This card gives 3 MPs when tapped. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [103 words]

ERIC’S FIRST VERSION
During your organization phase (or immediately after a ring is played), you may place a Black Rider or Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may play such cards as if they were in your hand and you may play any number of Ringwraith followers in a turn. Your Ringwraith’s company has no size limit.
If you have all nine Ringwraiths in play, tap one copy of this card when the company moves to a Free-Hold Border-Hold or Ruins & Lairs: it may move again using region movement. This card gives 3 MPs when tapped. You may start the game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [110 words]

CURRENT PUBLISHED VERSION
During your organization phase (or immediately after
opponent plays a ring), you may place a Black Rider or
Black Horse from your sideboard with this card. You may
play such cards as if they were in your hand and you may
play any number of Ringwraith followers in a turn. There
is no limit to the size of your Ringwraith’s company. If
you have all nine Ringwraiths are in a company together
you may tap this card at the end of the company’s
movement/hazard phase to allow them to move again; this
card gives 3 MPs when tapped. You may start the
game with this card in lieu of a minor item. [112 words]
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Postby BoderHamster » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:22 am

Oh i posted the wrong cardname above!
I didn't mean "Fell Rider"
I meant "Black Rider"
which you can fetch with this card, but doesn't make any sense for this mission at all? or does it?
is there some way to use that card with that deck, I am missing?
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Postby marcos » Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:23 am

am i getting this correct, or does 1 MP for each 3 RW means just 3 MPs for 3 TRT ???

or does it mean 1MP x3RW x 3TRT=9MP... i think it is a bit complicated too much maths for n00bs :P
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Postby Leon » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:59 am

I think it is perfectly ok that the mission is stopped if one RW is killed. Even if you take a lot of risk with the Nine, it takes a lot to kill any of them (loads of Elf-Lords or so) If I ever built a deck around this, I will certainly try to hunt my opponent down for CvCC.
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