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Council of Elrond • View topic - Canceling attack vs canceling strike (especially in CVCC)

Canceling attack vs canceling strike (especially in CVCC)

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Postby miguel » Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:15 pm

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Postby Wacho » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:21 am

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Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:35 pm

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Postby Wacho » Fri Mar 14, 2008 5:57 pm

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Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 14, 2008 6:53 pm

I don't want to say the there is such limitation.
Cards that modify target's prowess (other than playable only against strike) are not explicitly allowed, and are not precluded.
In other words it is not written that cards that modify defender's prowess may be played in addition to the other cards playable only against strike.

Whole chapter Strike Modifications does not say anything about modifications to the strike prowess ("There are a number of standard modifications to the prowess of each target character facing a strike:").
It does not mean that strike's prowess modifications are not allowed at all.

We are returning to the same point, I think.
There is assumption, that cards that modify target prowess may be played in strike sequence even if they are not playable only against strike. I.e. affecting strike, modifying defender's prowess by card playable also outside strike sequence is OK.
Base for this assumption is Strike Modifications chapter that does not preclude explicitly such possibility.

There is also assumption the prowess of attacker's strike can be only altered by cards playable only against the strike. I.e. affecting strike, modifying attack's prowess by card playable also outside Strike Sequence is not OK.
Base for this assumption is fact, the other possibility is not explicitly allowed by rules.

P.S.
When exactly cards like Block and Dodge can be played? At the stage 3 of Strike Sequence (A target untapped character may take a -3 modification so that he will not automatically tap following the strike sequence.),
or at stage 4 [The defending player may play resource cards that affect the strike (up to one card that requires skill).]?

EDIT:
Removed:
"This chapter is only about stage 4 of Strike Sequence." (line 9).

EDIT2:
Added verses "I.e. ..." for clearness.
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Postby Wacho » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:02 pm

Last edited by Wacho on Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:16 pm

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Postby Wacho » Mon Mar 17, 2008 1:35 pm

Konrad I'm not sure why you are arguing this. We agree (as far as I can tell) on these points. Unless you think you can't play cards such as Vilya or Eventstar.
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Postby Konrad Klar » Mon Mar 17, 2008 4:38 pm

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Postby Wacho » Mon Mar 17, 2008 8:29 pm

Ok, so you want to say that you can play cards that modify the attack during the strike sequence, but based on what justification? There is nothing in the rules that even suggests you could do this. In fact this contradicts a clear digest ruling. On the other hand I've mentioned a specific rule that allows the target's prowess to be affected. As far as your example that the rulebook doesn't mention that you can modify the prowess of a strike, that's true. However, cards in general are more specific than the rules and furthermore what other time than the strike sequence would these cards be playable? There really isn't any other opportunity. Whereas for cards that modify attacks there is an appropriate and logical time for them to be modified. Also the rules are clear that other attack modifications need to happen before strikes are assigned.

Look, you find something that mentions modifing attacks during the strike phase then great. Otherwise we have a clear ruling which is logical and which fits with how other cards are played. To overturn that would mean we would break the structural symmetry and it would also cause more problems as I've mentioned.
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Postby Konrad Klar » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:16 pm

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Postby Jambo » Fri Mar 28, 2008 1:33 pm

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Postby Jambo » Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:32 pm

The more I think about this, the more I agree with David.

The rules are quite specific when they state that players may only play resources or hazards that 'affect the strike'.

Potion of Prowess or Evenstar don't come with the playable against a strike or attack limitations, so one could conceivably play or use them at any time you like. They affect the strike so fair dos. The question remains as to why one would explicitly wait until during a specific character's strike sequence to play The Evenstar or use Potion of Prowess? However, I'm not sure I understand why this is resulting in interpreting cards that state they affect an attack and happen to modify prowess/body being encompassed in cards that now 'affect a strike' and can be played during the strike sequence? A card that imparts a +1 to an 'attack's' prowess is not the same as a card that imparts a +1 to a 'strike's' prowess.

Furthermore, if the recent ruling is correct, wouldn't the reverse then also be true? In that cards that affect a strike could also be considered to affect the attack? If so, then we're right back at square one with Cram and CvCC.

And lastly - as an aside - why would someone ever try to play Wizard's Flame during the strike sequence? Again, I can't imagine a situation where this would be beneficial to do so?! However, the same cannot be said for hazards. The benefit of being able to play hazards that boost the prowess of an attack in the strike sequence, when the attack is no longer able to be cancelled, is obvious!
Last edited by Jambo on Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Wacho » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:15 pm

The only motivation I see for this, Jamie, is that being able to play Wizard's Flame, Old Thrush, etc. saves the day for King Under the Mountain decks and other cases where you are facing auto attacks. But in my mind the problem is with the language on the auto-attack CRF entry and overruling COE41 doesn't really fix things.

The difference in opinion seems to be how to read the word "strike", you and I read it narrowly, others read it broadly. I suppose there is room for both interpretations but which makes more sense? Which makes for a more logical structure, which causes less problems? I think a narrow reading, which also has the benefit of not needing to overturn a previous digest. Furthermore, I also think that you are correct, if we rule this way we would need to revisit the CvCC rulings, which will cause more trouble and confusion.

Finally, I'd like to ask people who support a broad reading, if one or more strikes of an attack have been faced and then you decide to play Old Thrush or whatever, how can you make sense of that? Some of the strikes have been faced, and can not be modified. Are you supposed to go back and change the outcomes of those strikes? If not how can you say the attack can be modified, when part of the attack is not able to be changed? If the attack has body, how does it make sense for part of the attack to have one body, and part have another? It just does not seem logical.
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Postby Konrad Klar » Wed Apr 02, 2008 1:16 pm

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