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Council of Elrond • View topic - Attack as first declared action

Attack as first declared action

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Attack as first declared action

Postby Konrad Klar » Thu Sep 26, 2013 7:20 pm

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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby miguel » Fri Sep 27, 2013 8:57 am

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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Sep 27, 2013 4:26 pm

I think that Annotation 10 covers concurency of multiple actions pretending to be first declared.
These action may render to be illegally declared due to Annotation 15.
Sometimes action is illegaly declared for other reasons e.g. when target of action caused by passive condition leaves a play in the same chain of effect in which passive condition has been produced (a character is required to make cc due to Despair of Heart [caused by Rats! wounding other character]; next resolving Call of Home is returning the character to hand).
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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby miguel » Sat Sep 28, 2013 7:38 am

I think it's not unreasonable to just apply Annotation 10 to a situation with multiple ahunts triggering. It's essentially the same as your proposed change, but doesn't require us to actually alter the CRF via CoE rules proposal. I think Annotation 15 is just saying an attack can't be responded to with another attack which multiple ahunts aren't really doing anyway, they are added to the chain but not in response to one another (there is no time to respond until all triggered actions are placed in the chain). I don't think having multiple attacks in a chain makes any of them illegal, only responding to an attack with another one would be. (A bit of semantics I guess, but it seems to work.)
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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby Konrad Klar » Sat Sep 28, 2013 3:33 pm

Declaration is just declaration, whether made by player or by game.
We would debate whether that made by game may be called "in response", or only that made by players.
But Annotation 15 says "An attack must be the first declared action in a chain of effects" and further says about consequence "i.e., a creature card may not be played in response to another card in the same chain of effects". Not exhautsively, otherwise CoE addition would not be neccessary.

Leave it as is and literaly it would cause all but first declarations of attack in result of passive condition illegal.
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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby miguel » Sun Sep 29, 2013 8:36 am

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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 12:51 pm

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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby Konrad Klar » Sun Sep 29, 2013 5:12 pm

In current form Annotation 15 is like:

"X cannot be done -> Y cannot be done"
where Y is subcategory of X.

"Someone cannot play characters -> he cannot play Hobbits"

is valid implication. But not only implication.
It does not mean that someone can play Men, or Elves.

P.S.

Things are worse, strictly speaking - "i.e." is not equal to "this means".
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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby miguel » Tue Oct 01, 2013 2:23 pm

Re: Scatha Ahunt + Snowstorm, I would say the attack has a higher level of priority (due to Annotation 15) than Snowstorm, so the dragon-attack needs to be declared first.

I have no problem with issuing a ruling about any of this stuff, and I believe we are in agreement on how things should play out. I just think we have enough to handle it via a ruling instead of a CoE Rules Erratum.
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Re: Attack as first declared action

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Oct 04, 2013 8:27 pm

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