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Council of Elrond • View topic - No Better Use and No Site

No Better Use and No Site

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No Better Use and No Site

Postby miguel » Fri Apr 27, 2012 12:52 pm

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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby marcos » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:31 pm

this is different from rescueing prisoners, so i guess the character has no way to stay on table. Didn't check diggest or CRF for any reference though.
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby Konrad Klar » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:47 pm

Whatever will be ruled it should be consistent for whole class of situations where necessary host is not available (rescuing imprisoned characters does not count becasuse host is in play and may be used even if its copy is not present in LD).

Situations of such class include: No Better Use, Sack Over the Head, returning to the site of origin a company that has completed its M/H phase.
(In the last case a necessary host may be Refuge, Wondrous Maps, or Morannon, removed from play by Aware of Their Ways in M/H phase of other company, or from game by Desire All for Thy Belly).

P.S.
Although WH rules put responsibility of providing required site card on player that plays hazard forcing use of minion site cards they does not regulate situations when such hazards is discarded and hero version is not in LD.
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby miguel » Sun May 13, 2012 10:34 am

Interesting points.

What about when the company composition rules would be violated because of two companies joining at a non-Haven?

Let's say there are three companies (A, B and C). Companies A and B have finished their move/haz phases to the same non-Haven site and discarded their tapped sites of origin. Company C moves somewhere, and now companies A and B try to join but would violate company composition rules. Neither company has a site card 'available' because they were discarded!

Now should the returning company get discarded because there is no site available? Or should the necessary site card return from the discard pile? I think the second option is how most people would handle the situation. But then should this be extended to things like No Better Use? Can you return a card from out of play this way too (Wondrous Maps + Aware of Their Ways)?

This might also solve the issue with Wondrous Maps + Crown of Flowers getting Twilighted (Wondrous Maps would be immediately retrieved for the company)?
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby Konrad Klar » Sun May 13, 2012 10:57 am

I think that such situations requires errata.
Because any exact solution will be brand new concept.

One of possible solution is concept of proxies - site cards (or equivalents) inverted by 180 degrees on table* (wounded sites) used only to indicate position of company. There should be penalties for using such sites, so player could not be able to play resources on or at such sites, or play characters at such sites.

*) Like in case of At Home associated with Legendary Hoard (when At Home must be removed from active play).
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby marcos » Sun May 13, 2012 5:24 pm

yep that might work
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby miguel » Mon May 14, 2012 10:10 am

I believe introducing 'wounded sites' is out of the question. Normal sites returned from discard pile should enter play tapped, because that's the way the ended up there. Cards like Wondrous Maps are more problematic, they could re-enter play from discard pile (even if they were untapped before), play deck or even out of play. There's another problematic spot too, let's say my agent is using the site card I need to recover, now what?

I'm starting to think that going the other way, simply discarding a company that has no site available is better. Brutal, but it's not like this situation comes up often.
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby Konrad Klar » Mon May 14, 2012 10:45 am

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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby miguel » Tue May 15, 2012 12:41 pm

I've thought about this some more, and I think we might need to differentiate between companies returning to site of origin vs. situations involving No Better Use etc.

Let's say I have two minion companies that end up moving to the same site for one reason or another, and they can't join because of company composition rules. One of those companies moved first and its site of origin was discarded, the other is finishing its move/haz now and still has the site of origin available. According to CRF the hazard player gets to choose which company gets sent back. If he chooses the company that lost its site, I'd say you get the site back (tapped) from the discard pile. Otherwise the company would get discarded, and that just seems really weird to me. Plus, it's not like we never get stuff back from the discard pile without an effect saying so (you do this for a defeated attack from an already discarded dragon ahunt).

Now compare this to the following situation. I play FW and got a hobbit in a troll's Sack, my boys gets their asses kicked at Wondrous Maps by some drake and the hobbit would be released there. Opponent doesn't have Wondrous Maps anywhere, he doesn't even own one! Unless we'd want the hobbit to share Maps with my company (which I think we don't), he would simply be discarded.

So how's this. For companies returning to the site of origin, you get that site back from discard or even from out of play in the same orientation it was in when it left the table. But for characters popping up from No Better Use and such, the player must be able to provide a site from his location deck, or the character must be able to join a company already at the site, otherwise that character is discarded. Thoughts?
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby marcos » Tue May 15, 2012 12:51 pm

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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby Konrad Klar » Tue May 15, 2012 12:55 pm

What about company forced to return due to violation of company composition rules to the non-existing Refuge (removed by Aware of Their Ways)?
Player must return other company (that in turn may potentially cause other violation of company composition rules), or may opt to return (and discard in consequence) company that started from Refuge?
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby Konrad Klar » Tue May 15, 2012 1:12 pm

And what about FW company that involuntary changes its status from non-overt to overt, or vice versa and player does not have an appropriate version of site in LD?
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby marcos » Tue May 15, 2012 1:14 pm

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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby miguel » Tue May 15, 2012 1:16 pm

If the company must return to Refuge that was removed from play after being discarded, I'd say that Refuge will return into play in the orientation it was in when it left the table (was discarded). Similarly, if the deck exhausted, the player would search his playdeck (or even sb) for Refuge. Or if he already drew it, he would play it from his hand. In other words, Refuge would always return (in the orientation it was in when it left the table). This is a situation that's very likely to never happen in an actual game though, but I do think that an opponent shouldn't be able to destroy an entire company in this manner.

As for the Wondrous Maps + Crown of Flowers getting Twilighted situation, I think the company would get discarded because they weren't sent to site of origin. And the player was a fool to play WM with CoF to begin with. :wink:
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Re: No Better Use and No Site

Postby Konrad Klar » Tue May 15, 2012 1:26 pm

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